Wing Tsun Anti Grappling

[koguy]

Hi Tom,
well WT is a streetfighting art, not a sport. On the street there are other things that count: no rolling on the ground (the other guy´s buddies could beat you or your opponent could draw a knive and you can´t escape), only quick, hard striking and seeking for the exit. WT is by far the best art I have ever tested (though I am in no organisation any more). More like any other arts it depends heavily on your personal instructor how good you really can get because your instructor has to implant the chi-sao reflexes into your movements. The WT System is not that wide spread in the US so it´s relatively difficult to get a good guy who not only can teach you the technique but who is also good enough to show you them in full applicance (this is only when they work, WT does not work semi-contact and at half speed; a lot of people lack this knowledge, they attack a WT guy who does not respond in full and so they can escape, fake etc., and then they go away and talk nonsense about WT). If you have the chance join a seminar of Emin´s or visit the headquarters of EBMAS in LA. Good luck !

PS: Keep on boxing an low kicking if you begin your WT training. The big mistake most WT students make if they had let´s say a year or so training is that they quit pumping, punching the sandback, running etc. Keep your sources strong and don´t think dynamic and soft movements like in WT make you hard hitting. They give you a good base for absorbing your oponents power and becoming flexible as well as developing economy of motion. But only hard hitting some kind of bag (and far later the wooden dummy) lets you kick ass

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by Tom Yum
If you train smart for full time, then you will compete like a professional.

Well... Yes and no. Most professional athletes realize at an early age that they are more gifted than the average person. A guy like myself who has trained hard each day for years cannot compete professionally—simply because I'm not physically gifted enough.

Originally posted by Tom Yum
These guys make claims that their moves are effective and the vidoe clips show Boztepe's guys throwing kicks and punches with intent of hitting him (unlike shotokan). He's a controversial topic in wing tsun; he and William Cheung squared off and Boztepe sweeped Cheung and hit him about 12 times on the ground.

It's funny you should bring this up. I've seen the original footage when it was originally put on and the edited version. They both look like two girls wrestling on the ground. However, in the original, you will see that Cheung throws a couple WC kicks and punches, albeit they're useless... Emin doesn't look anymore comfortable on the ground than Cheung, just bigger and heavier, and therefore has more momentum... I seriously don't think Emin would use that footage to promote himself.

In truth, in the past I was fascinated with Wing Tsun, but not so much anymore... There's a lack of power from the way the strikes are delivered. Blocks are static and the use of forms don't help either.

There's footage of a Kyoshun Karate guy squaring off against a WC guy. The WC guy throws maybe a hundred punches and the karate guy knocks him out with one.

[Tom Yum]

I think I've seen that one too. But the wing chun guy looks like he weighs about 140 lbs and malnourished, while the kyokushin guy is like 210-220 lbs. The Boztepe/Cheung video is blurry, but you can see where Boztepe places a foot behind Cheung and sends him down.

Kyokushin is a style that emphasizes power development, like muay thai or boxing. I would have to see more of Boztepe; the guys he partners with throw hard kicks and punches at him. One even grabs his leg and goes for a single.

I think any style, if trained in a modern and realistic way can make good self-defense.

[blade_cs]

Originally posted by koguy
Emin is a really good fighter, there´s no doubt about it! He has got a lot of physical power, speed, good timing and an aggressive attitude in a fight. The problem with anti-grappling is that you can´t compare a pro-wrestler or UFC competitor to the ordinary guy who is learning WT. Of course he will be taken down by such professional athlets we see in the Octagon. If you could compare a top WT fighter (who are very rare) to a MMA fighter then one could probably see that anti-grappling works well (but not always and as you whish) when carried out full speed and power. Emin has those attributes because of his lifelong training in WT (I think it´s now 22 or 23 years) and some other stiles (which he tried out but did not master as far as I know). Most of his students either lack his power or his technique. There is noone who brings these qualities together. So the conclusion is: yes anti-grappling works, if you are strong fast and have the right sensitivity (chi-sao and chi-gerk) but it does not work if you are an average guy with an average talent and you have got a fulltime job till the evening. Then you can only stand against the ordinary guy on the street who - hopefully - never got full instruction in groundfighting. Just join one of Emin´s seminars an ask him to show his method so you know what is possible and what is not. But don´t just believe what they are saying. Seeing is believing

PS: What do these guys have to do with Emin Boztepe and WT http://www.theburst.com/self-defense-videos.html ? As far as I can see there is no link.

Yeah, I agree. It's easier to take someone down than to prevent others from taking you down.

I seen a lot of WT guys fight other styles and most of the punches are very week and sissy. How do you expect to knock out a BJJ guy with slaps?!

Can you describe to me how Anti Grappling works? I mean, I understand WT works well if someone grabs your arm. But a lot of grapplers don't go for the arms. For example, they can grab the hip or the legs.

PS: The link, http://www.theburst.com/self-defense-videos.html, is just another AntiGrappling WT.

Thank you

[Tom Yum]

I don't think they're slaps; rather palm heel strikes. My impression is that wing tsun fighters hit fast and light so as to keep you on the defensive or get you to react and put your hands up. Once you do that, they trap or pull your defense into an elbow, head butt, knee or strike to a vital area and then continue to strike or low kick.

As far as beating grapplers, again I think what it really means is that it makes wing tsun fighters aware of grappling range and teaches them how to defend against basic takedowns.

I would like to see how they would do against both an average and advance BJJ practicioner.

[falcon3624]

The only problem with that is if you are going in light striking fast on someone like me, Tom, Ghost, or whoever else practices in MT you might get in about 5 hits to our 1 but that one is going to put you on your back and probably end you up taking a long nap.

[shasan]

on the WT or WC thing...

I thought the Ts in Tsung is actually pronounced in such a way that english-speaking people pronounce it as Ch.

I knew a guy who we called Chung, but he spelled it Tsung (or Tzung) and when he said his name it sound a lot like Chung but not quite.

just a stupid little comment.

[budoman]

Anti Grappling videos

Hello, I happen to be in business of martial arts instructionals. I do have the WT Anti Grappling video by Sifu Victor Guitterez. The tape is very good cause it showed real fights of grapplers taking down WT fighters as well as ground fighting. The WT fighter always look for center line to trap and punch the grappler face from the guard. As for side mount, when grapper try to Americana the WT, the WT push the guy tricep as he shrimp out, push the grapper with his legs and kicked him. For mount position, the WT always tried to stand up and stomp the grapper. The overall tape is very good cause they all show real fighting.
Sifu Victor is under Leung Ting and a good friend of Emin. If you guys interested I sell original tapes of WT, BJJ (guys under Fabio Gurgel, Charles Gracie and Robin Gracie). Thanks

[Justin]

wtf

WT anti grappling = very bad jiujitsu

[sercuerdas]

don't underestimate the power of slaps.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

80x a minute isn't striking nor punching, it is waving

Kyokushin guy from other forum, attended a seminar where the instuctor tried to correct his punches, he should hit with the knuckle of the pinky, he then proposed the instuctor hit him 5x with that after which he would hit him once using the karatefist (first 2 knuckles)..... he wisely declined
If a WT(or whatever combo of characters)guy goues via a centralline to the head, I would chose to take a few of those and counter using a liverhook, how about the rest of us?

[Lost Ronin]

I have taken a look at those anti grappling tapes offered by Emin, just my personal opinion, but I think that he is well meaning but unrealistic. The defenses are composed of "the grappler" trying to grab a leg and then him pausing like a moron while the WT fighter knees him in the head and funny crap like that. Besides, the techniques seem to be based on the fact that you know which takedown is coming and you plan accordingly. If you have ever been to a wrestling practice you will know that this is not how it works. Overall, I have no beef with Emin or his system. But as a wrestler and submission grappler who is also well versed in striking I can tell you that the average highschool wrestler can easily take down someone who is depending on these strategies as their primary defense.

The best defense for grappling is to be well versed in sprawling and clinching. It took me about a year to sprawl well, and its a skill that comes in handy everytime I face a Folkstyle wrestler or BJJ guy that doesn't insist on just pulling guard. Overall, don't just take my word for it. Buy the tapes, get yourself a buddy who wrestles and have him put on some good headgear. Tell him to shoot at you anyway he likes and then try to defend yourself using the WT strategies. Maybe I lack skill, but I don't know anyone who has successfully used these techniques to avoid a REAL grappler. Not a WT dude that's simply trying to snatch a leg.