Is It The Instructor Or Style That Counts

[Balo]

For the average guy wanting to learn a self defence system, In your local area you are going to have a choice of a number of Martial arts to study. I beleive that it is more inportant to find the most knowledgable instructor available than get caught up in the hype of a particular style.

If for example one clone went to study, BJJ at his local club with an average ability instructor (who has got on thE BJJ craze since the first UFC) and one clone went to study Judo with a well respected Olympic level instructor.

After say 7 years if these two identical people were to fight, I beleive that the Judo guy would win, as chances are he has been taught to a better standard with an instructor who knows more.

This scenario could apply to MT and an instructor of Karate (if the instructor really new his stuff and taught realist Self defence), I bet that the Karate guy would win.

So what I'm saying is that unless you are being taught by a well respected instructor in your particular style, It does not matter what style you study, because you will only be as good as your instructor has taught you, If he knows rubbish you will be taught rubbish. So beleiving that because you study BJJ or MT as opposed to other styles does not mean that you can beat everyone else (who you beleive to be inferior) and will not automatically make you Rickson Gracie standard.

Like to hear what you all think about this

[Thai Bri]

It isn't necessarily one or the other, and can vary.

Anyway, which bit of Manc are ya from?

[Half-Asleep]

They are both really important u can't really have one more than the other. U need a good instructer to teach u sure but they may just be really good at teaching u junk that u will never be able to use and had no purpose... what if the techniques they taught were bad for u and screwed over your joints then having them teach u well would be a bad thing kos u would fall into the habit of using the bad stuff. But as u have already sed u need to be taught the good stuff well for it to be useful.

[Great Sage]

Re: Is It The Instructor Or Style That Counts

Originally posted by Balo
If for example one clone went to study, BJJ at his local club with an average ability instructor (who has got on thE BJJ craze since the first UFC) and one clone went to study Judo with a well respected Olympic level instructor.

After say 7 years if these two identical people were to fight, I beleive that the Judo guy would win, as chances are he has been taught to a better standard with an instructor who knows more.

If you’re trying to defend TKD and other useless arts, this thread doesn’t do you any justice. Ofcourse, the Judo guy will do much better since Judo incorporates grappling as well... However, the BJJ guy will still give the judo guy a good fight. Here’s an example: My BJJ instructor trained in Judo since he was 5. After 15 years of study, he met a BJJ Blue Belt and rolled with him. The BJJ was using moves my instructor had never seen and was beating him! Hence, he switched over.

However if you were to compare BJJ and TKD, the scenario would greatly favor BJJ. A Blue Belt instructor in BJJ is light years ahead of a Black Belt TKD. I don’t care if the TKD guy is an Olympic Class athlete, once on the ground, he’s a goner—speaking from personal experience.

Originally posted by Balo
This scenario could apply to MT and an instructor of Karate (if the instructor really new his stuff and taught realist Self defence), I bet that the Karate guy would win.

Please don’t theorize about about things you know nothing about. My TKD Grandmaster was an 8th Dan Kukkiwon instructor. Yet, the first time I got into the ring against a local MT guy, I was annihilated. Muay Thai is a system art... In other words, it’s the system that makes the art good.

Originally posted by Balo
So what I'm saying is that unless you are being taught by a well respected instructor in your particular style, It does not matter what style you study, because you will only be as good as your instructor has taught you, If he knows rubbish you will be taught rubbish. So beleiving that because you study BJJ or MT as opposed to other styles does not mean that you can beat everyone else (who you beleive to be inferior) and will not automatically make you Rickson Gracie standard.

Again, your logic is flawed... Very few people become clones of their master. There are many things to consider: size, weight and athletic ability. By your logic, anyone who trains under Heel Il Cho is a better fighter than say your local MT gym... Not true at all. Like I said before, MT and BJJ are system arts that rely on principles that work. Helio Gracie was by no means an Olympic Class athlete or fighter by stature... However, using the principles of grappling he was able to defeat hundreds of opponents.

Furthermore, I seriously doubt there are many rubbish MT or BJJ clubs. If you know of one, point it out. The demeanor of MT and BJJ are not to be confused with Mcdojos. Few people have earned Black Belt in BJJ and few people can measure up to MT...

[Ghost]

Superbly put Great Sage, you may live.

[Half-Asleep]

Re: Re: Is It The Instructor Or Style That Counts

Originally posted by Great Sage

Again, your logic is flawed... Very few people become clones of their master. There are many things to consider: size, weight and athletic ability. By your logic, anyone who trains under Heel Il Cho is a better fighter than say your local MT gym... Not true at all.

but someone training under Heel Il Cho (i have no idea who this is i assume they were/are good) may have a better chance to be a great fighter than somone training at the MT gym...

[Ghost]

No

Think about it.

If TKD is rubbush and you trace it back to its roots you will have pure crap.

[Half-Asleep]

is that a reply to what i wrote? if so how does that relate to what i wrote in n e way lol i didn't even mention tkd

[Ghost]

Yes it is to what you wrote

[Balo]

Great Sage, If you read the Thread, you will see I'm got defending TKD, I am not even talking about TKD and you have misinterpreded my message, as I am also not stating that you will become a clone of your instructor.

I am only saying that If you study a Martial art under an instructor who has pressure tested his style and has cross trained, (what ever his core style), well I aggree except TKD, then you are sure you are learning an afective art. There are instructors out their who do teach tradition based styles in such a way and are not afraid to modify/ seive through the junk and learn new techniques. It is not correct to automatically dismiss all other styles as being inferior to MT or BJJ. Even BJJ needs to continue to adapt, as can be seen on more recent MMA events, Knowledge in one style is no longer enough. It can not always guarrantee success, remember Royce Gracie (BJJ )v Yoshida (Judo) fight. No style is invincible.

A mate of mine who is a Shotokan Karate instructor and works the door around Liverpool, pressure tests his style every saturday night. I can tell you his students can definately hold their own on the street or in the MMA arena.

And before you say it, yes you do need to know knowledge of Grappling and Striking, I just do not beleive they have to only be BJJ and MT to be effective. There are plenty of styles that can complement each other AS LONG AS THEY & YOURSELF ARE PRESSURE TESTED.

BJJ and MT are great arts, but they are not the only ones out their, and automatically dismissing other martial artists as being ineffective is rubbish. You are just in danger of simplifing the issue and beleiving in redetermined outcomes based on style stuydied, not the school.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by Balo
Great Sage, If you read the Thread, you will see I'm got defending TKD, I am not even talking about TKD and you have misinterpreded my message, as I am also not stating that you will become a clone of your instructor.

Balo, Balo, Balo...

Why have you changed your argument? Your initial argument compared BJJ and MT to Judo and karate and NOW it’s cross-trained martial arts... Well, what else would a karate guy cross-train in except MT or BJJ... Hence, it wouldn’t be karate anymore.

Originally posted by Balo
I am only saying that If you study a Martial art under an instructor who has pressure tested his style and has cross trained, (what ever his core style), well I aggree except TKD, then you are sure you are learning an afective art. There are instructors out their who do teach tradition based styles in such a way and are not afraid to modify/ seive through the junk and learn new techniques. It is not correct to automatically dismiss all other styles as being inferior to MT or BJJ. Even BJJ needs to continue to adapt, as can be seen on more recent MMA events, Knowledge in one style is no longer enough. It can not always guarrantee success, remember Royce Gracie (BJJ )v Yoshida (Judo) fight. No style is invincible.

If you’re talking about modified arts, you’ve been backlashing them all along. BJJ is a modified form of grappling. Muay Thai continues to be the fastest growing martial art, incorporating elements of boxing and sports training. These arts are evolving on a professional level...

Originally posted by Balo
A mate of mine who is a Shotokan Karate instructor and works the door around Liverpool, pressure tests his style every saturday night. I can tell you his students can definately hold their own on the street or in the MMA arena.

Well, I can gaurantee you that he’s not fighting BJJ and MT guys each night. Working the door is not comparable to fighting in a NHB match or a street fight with another martial artist.

Originally posted by Balo
And before you say it, yes you do need to know knowledge of Grappling and Striking, I just do not beleive they have to only be BJJ and MT to be effective. There are plenty of styles that can complement each other AS LONG AS THEY & YOURSELF ARE PRESSURE TESTED.

Why bother with pressure testing and trying to make Kung-Pao Chicken style work? BJJ and MT have stood the test of time against the best martial arts... Few people can argue against BJJ, and few people can step into a MT ring. What are these styles you’re referring to? I’m certain any style that professes to be effective has elements found in BJJ and MT.

Originally posted by Balo
BJJ and MT are great arts, but they are not the only ones out their, and automatically dismissing other martial artists as being ineffective is rubbish. You are just in danger of simplifing the issue and beleiving in redetermined outcomes based on style stuydied, not the school.

I never dismissed other arts... I said MT and BJJ are more effective. And as we all know, some styles are plain useless. I’m not being naive, just realistic... All serious martial artists can attest to this because like myself, they’ve tested the waters and found that these two styles stand out from most. There’s always a better way of doing something, MT and BJJ just happen to be two reasons to abandon mythological martial arts BS.

[Half-Asleep]

Originally posted by Ghost
Yes it is to what you wrote

...how is it related? was Heel Il Cho a TKD guy? where did i even mention it?