Is your system evolving?

[Ghost]

Well i do MT and it changes with the times, although as yet it has not incorporated any ground fighting.

Some systems like Shotokan Karate dont change.
I did shotokan Karate for a couple of years and they kept going on about how it is the same original system.

Now im sure thats not quite true. But the point is the mind set of the style. It tries to remain the same where as others try to adapt. Maybe evolution of the system has watered it down.

My question to you all is do you think there is any real benefit to a system being "static" and not evolving?
Can the system remain useful if it never changes?

Please try and keep it non style specific, just arguments for or against evolving or static.

NO TKD BASHING FOR THIS ENTIRE THREAD AS AN ABSOLUTE RULE.



Otherwise Casper aint gonna be so friendly anymore.

TKD Bashing reserved for other threads, NOT this one.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

MT in the west has changed it seems in Thailand it is still roughly the same

I think the problem is STYLES, if you don't realy have styles, like there is one Judo, one Kendo, one MT, it seems to be easier to adapt, change of the rules or ways applies to everyone

Arts that do have many many styles have this problem that a founder ( who himself DID change a style) set everything, and the rule is if you change you rename, result if I change Shotokan, it may no longer be called Shotokan
Only the founder can change a style there

MT will most likely never get groundfighting, because it too, is tradition ( in Thailand)

If you change something, it isn't the same anymore, so don't call it the same anymore

[Half-Asleep]

Toudiyama[NL] u have a very good argument.

I think that ninpo (higher order of ninjitsu/ninjutsu) isn't the exact same as it was when it was created i doubt it could have remained completely unchanged but i believe it is based around the same stuff and bears close resemblance to its origional form. I also belive that a style evolves when it is taught to a student as each student brings something to the style in how they do it.

[Ghost]

Well MT has adapted in some ways as it has added new kicks and since the 20's modern western boxing as well, it is adding new techniques all the time for clinch elbow and knee.

It is still MT and the same system.

It is evolving, the only time you need to rename is others do not accept the changes, i believe.

Good point though.

But my point is that if the style is an evolutionary one, generally any good technique added will be recognised as one and will be added to the system, and most will agree to it.

If the system is one of strict tradition and reamains static, if someone wants to change it then like you say they will need to forma new style.

I guess this is a difference between static and evolving styles.

Like you say MT is static with its approach to ground fighting, indeed if it is added it will no douubt be renamed, but im sure someone will point out there is a system like this already. I KNOW. just making a point.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Believe it or not even styles like Shotokan have changed over the years, 20 years ago it looked different from now
Doesn't make it more effective though

Also not all will evolve into the same, although in MMA you have and high change of ending up on the ground, that doesn't mean that the same is true for real life
As a result some will still not pay much attention to groundfighting

What you see in for instance Karate is not evolving into something new but rather look at the very old to see what was lost, this way people have found that grabling was an intergral part of Karate ( no groundfighting I think)

What art other than MT ( slightly) and BJJ as a result of MMA events have actually really evolved?

[Ghost]

I guess JKD does, depends where you go.

If you agree JKD is a style, which i believe it has become.

I think the filipino weapon systems evolve though may have nearly reached theyre evolutionary peak.

Not sure, anyone else got any ideas.

[William]

>>But my point is that if the style is an evolutionary one, generally any good technique added will be recognized as one and will be added to the system, and most will agree to it.

One example of this comes out of Kajukenbo. Sifu Al Dacascos decided (and was given permission) to add so called softer/flowing movements and techniques that he brought out of the Filipino arts as well as Kung-Fu to the system. He then re-named the style Wun Hop Kuen Do. Based off of Kajukenbo, but now different. He was quite successful with it on the fighting circuits back in the 70’s. He is always incorporating and evolving the system. When the first UFC’s hit the scene and showed the importance of good grappling skills, they really started hitting the mats and working that aspect. I give him credit, he is able to evolve and adapt to the times and not get stuck on “this is how it was done 200 years ago, so this how we do it now” mentality.

>>Like you say MT is static with its approach to ground fighting, indeed if it is added it will no doubt be renamed,>>

MT has ground techniques. After you get into the standing grappling (Muay Boran) and throw them to the ground, the moment they hit you round kick the beejeezes out of whatever’s available (Ok, technically it’s not grappling but…).

>>I think the filipino weapon systems evolve though may have nearly reached theyre evolutionary peak.>>

Yes and no. Some systems are much further along than others, but the FMA’s has always been about incorporating whatever is successful/useful from other systems. The countries location along prime shipping routes brought them into contact with many different cultures and fighting systems. The existence of many different tribes who would war against each other continually kept the multitude of fighting systems evolving. Insurrection against foreign occupiers for over 300 years, plus the Filipinos who were conscripted and taught to fight for the Spanish (on top of their indigenous fighting systems) against their brothers just added to their arsenal. Today, some of the FMA systems that are taught are not watered down. They are not far removed from the real-time combative fighting.
What you have to watch out for now is de-evolution. Some styles have become just stick systems. Their movements don't translate to the blade (easily or at all). I have trained with one GM who taught a good thrusting style in close quarters. Nice, short, nasty movements. A few years later I was able to get together with him again and he was now teaching hitting with the weapon from the same structure. Hitting is effective, but the thrusting was nastier and harder to counter. His explanation was that people were getting hurt in his seminars so he changed it. Those of us who had worked with him before knew this, but the newer folks thought the modified way was it. They walk away with a watered down version, which they then teach to others.


William

[Ghost]

Thanks William that was an excellent post.

I have some experience with filipino weapons systems.
BUt limited from what i have seen they are highly evolved, but iguess as you say not all of them.

I dont really think that MT itself can be said to incorporate ground fighting at all.

thanks for the comments though. Interesting how the fact that the physical positioning of a country has effected its MA development.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Hi, my name is Spanky. I'm here to chew bubblegum and bash Taekwondo. And I'm all outta bubble gum!


****

Our system is only 3 generations old. It is already an amalgamation of many different techniques from four or five root arts.

We are constantly (at the instructor level) trying out new things, new variations on an old theme and generally experimenting. However, changes to the core art are slow. This is as it should be.

Our style is reduced down to simple techniques and simple principles. The 'advanced' levels are nothing more than combinations of these foundational concepts towards more 'interesting' situations.

The two lead instructors (the respective 'Grandmaster' and 'Master') of our lineage are in constant contact and evaluate how the curriculum is managed. Funny thing is, we only have two schools nationwide, and each one is significantly different than the other. So yes, we are evolving, but we shy away from incorporating the latest and greatest just because...


And as I say 'we' I mean 'they' as I am a nobody in the grand scheme of things.

Spanky

[William]

Interesting how the fact that the physical positioning of a country has effected its MA development.

On a small scale:
You train with and fight the same people all the time….you get real good at fighting THOSE people. When someone new walks in with some good skills, all of a sudden it may not be quite so easy. Many people get stuck into thinking they are bad asses because they kick butt in their Dojo all the time. But, when it goes down outside their Dojo (on the street or sport fighting), they sometimes find out quickly, surprisingly, painfully, and occasionally fatally that they weren’t. The ones that survive do one of two things, go into denial and hide back in their perfect world, or they look at what happened realistically and try to adapt and work on their weaknesses. Evolve.

On a larger scale:
If you were in a position to be in constant exposure from people from other cultures who had a different take on martial skills you will pick up things. My guess would be that sailors were generally a rough and rowdy crowd looking to let off some steam when they had time off the ships. Sh*t happens. There were also a lot of Pirate groups (Filipino) who were based on many of the islands (esp. southern PI) who would attack trade vessels (and probably just about everyone else) around the islands. And conversely, if you are warring with neighboring islands or foreign occupiers (for over three hundred years) on a regular basis, your skills will evolve (Or you die).

A very basic (and not the greatest) example:

Let’s see, I did this…I lived - he died. Ok, we’ll keep that one. Now Fred did that, and he died….ok, let’s modify or throw that one out.

So, bottom line:
*Exposure to other cultures
*Constant warring among tribes
*Fighting foreign occupiers
*Being trained to fight for the occupiers against other tribes (divide & conquer)
*Large-scale pirate activity

All this (and probably some things I’m missing) combined, worked to distill and evolve the fighting systems of the Philippines all the way up into this century. That’s why you still have systems that are not watered down available.


William

[Half-Asleep]

thats interesting william, i find myself not thinking about what u were saying on the small scale its prolly something many ppl need to think about more. The large scale stuff was interesting too.

[William]

i find myself not thinking about what u were saying on the small scale its prolly something many ppl need to think about more.

I think it’s a problem that many people overlook. You train/spar/fight with the same people all the time, you figure out their strategies, timing, strengths, and weaknesses. You get good at fighting THEM. Someone new (with some skill) walks into the picture and all of a sudden your getting a run for your money. Some of the more “sport” oriented systems are particularly prone to this. Not only do they start thinking their pretty bad (meaning real good), within their group/school, they think it transfers to over to the real world. I’ve personally seen quite a few people find out the hard way that they weren’t. Even the more reality-based systems are not immune to it – though generally to a lesser degree. The bottom line is to train and fight/spar with as many different people, from as many different schools/systems as possible. This way you learn to adapt your skills to different types of fighters (brawlers, technicians, runners, grounders etc….) with different attributes and skills.
Or, you could also just go out and start a lot of fights on the street, but that generally has more negative aspects to it than the positive one you might get out of it: _ _ _ _ _ (insert friends or spouses name), can you come bail me out? Been there, done that.


William

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Based on the post from William
I still say that a lot of styles/schools with a living founder will most likely evolve, but as soon as the founder is dead development is too
JKD became a style after the founder was dead so is in a different position

Art without styles evolve if the rules ask for it (Judo)

[Lizard]

Arts will evolve. But they will evolve to suit their environment.

eg. If I start a style with lots of board breaking then the style will evole to contain more board breaking techniques

eg. Boxing adapted to gloves (changed fist alignement, attacking surface and allowed new moves)

You need to be careful. When you consider changing the way your art is trained, think about what will happen after say 100 years of evolution.

eg. "Let's make this art a sport where you can only kick"...

You can alter evolution with selective breeding, you have to think about what you want and pick techniques which you hope will work for that purpose. Unfotunatley this is not always accurate.

Is my art evolving?
Is your species evolving?

[hashpuppet]

i think ninpo is probably pretty different than what it used to be since half of it back in the day in japan was assassination, quick kills, a big emphasis on throwing weapons, and espionage. It was esscentially an art developed for war, now its mostly fighting skills and close range weapons. I doubt you'll find a dojo that teaches you how to assassinate someone with ninjastars.