Why Judo is superior to juijitsu brazilian or otherwise

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Originally posted by NWPTrainer


The 75th Ranger Regiment developed a Ju-Jitsu training program in alliance with Rorion and Royce. They still do it occasionally,ut it is not a focal point of their training by any stretch of the imagination.

THe Regiment is used as a testbed for anything the regular army gets. BJJ is THE basis for all combatives/SD training in the Army right now though.......

RLTW

Hmm, seems like hard evidence or whatever nonscense for combat effectivness.

[Cain]

why do you guys even bother to try to have a serious discussion with a guy like this "kevin green" troll anyway? he is just a clueless idiot which makes false arguments 90% of the time.. let him roll on his own little sea of ignorance and let us discuss more important matters..

[IPON]

I have always viewed BJJ as brazilian Judo as it does not seem to incorporate all aspects of jujutsu and the ground work is overemphasized. This is from speaking machado and Gracie in NYC. I think that it is great fro sport MMA, but for street defensive it doesn't seem so strong. I would rather throw an attker than to shoot in. And remeber the GJJ has been beaten several times, that does not take away from the art , they just said that it could not be beaten. The leg and ankle locks are generally more emphasized than Judo, but I don't know if they are more advanced. I honestly feel judo and BJJ are equal in technique the BJJ seems to be more flexable and adaptive.
any other thoughts?

AND KG BOWING SHOWS RESPECT.....PERIOD. Trandition doesnot have to be sacrificed for modernization of an art.
So stop the conspiracy theory........or I will send over Ninja to bow infornt of you until you are brain washed.

[NWPTrainer]

Originally posted by Mr. Heel Hook



Hmm, seems like hard evidence or whatever nonscense for combat effectivness.

Maybe.....I am a Gracie fan, through and through. I think what they did for the MA world is awesome.......On the other hand though......

Having served with Regiment, and knowing the mission parameters......The transition from what they do with H2H combat and what Joe Street is gonna need are not always the same. The Soldier, whether Ranger or Leg, is gonna have some buddies nearby. Not always, but often enough to work the odds...If he lies back into a straight arm bar, his buddy can run up and bayonet the guy...Joe Street does that, he better be able to carry it through into a break and fast, cause the bad guy's buddies might just run up and BOOT him.....

I am not badmouthing the Gracie's, or Ju-Jitsu...I do think though that you have to spend a lot more tim e on your feet than they do.....

RLTW

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Originally posted by NWPTrainer




I am not badmouthing the Gracie's, or Ju-Jitsu...I do think though that you have to spend a lot more tim e on your feet than they do.....

RLTW

Oh no dude, I don't think you are bad mouthing them by any means. And as for staying on your feet, I would imagine so in a combat situation.

[kwai]

lets get real

ever since the UFC, when it was real, without the rules, .. Royce Gracie changed the way of thinking. With him beating Shamrock and all who he fought, did I hear a draw??? I dont think so.... Royce was not built like Shamrock and would have killed him eventually if it was just he an him on the street with no one to break it up, Royce maybe would even let him live... who knows.... anyway..... Gracie JJ is the art that I would love to learn. Judo is not, but would have to do since there are not many Gracie JJ schools here in NJ. In fact none. They have applied and tested there techniuqes in REAL LIFE COMBAT.... !!! it has been proven time after time. Just look at the gracies challage videos with experts and hard core fighters comming to there school and fighting. I belive that all of my training for, ten years.... I do not think that I could beat a Gracie student that has studied for one year. It is simple, and I have seen the proof. Real Life, Real moves... When have you ever fought someone in real life and stood up the whole time.... I have been in alot of street fights, and unless the guy or you gets a lucky punch in.... it is going to the ground. that is real life for ya....

[IPON]

You should have more confidence in yourself when facing any artist regardless of there background. But these taped combat scenes were not "real life" they were matches, non holds barred granted but still matches. When you have matches you have stratagy. BJJ are extremley well conditionedand will continue a match for 30-45 minutes until they win. It does not take anything away from the victory and I am not attacking BJJ (Machado or Gracie), but it is still a match. One of the biggest arguements from Royce in the original UFC was regarding teh time limit he hefelt is should be longer, why legitimate strategy. Street fighting is far different. shooting on someone on the dirt street of Rio is not the same as on concrete. And I have been in many street fights that I have not gone to the ground I force or throw and opponent to the ground.

I would like to study with Machado BJJ in NYC becuase of the sport aspect and teh leg techniques but for street.........I am not impressed. Also, I do think there is a BJJ in NJ (maybe philly) I will try to find the link and Renzel Gracie is on 23rd or 27th street if you are near NYC

[IPON]

Hey Kwai,

I don't know what part of NJ you are located but here is the infomation on the SJ dojo and a link for Renzo (he is actually on 37th street) he has saturday classes one class a week is better than none

RENZO GRACIE'S SOUTH JERSEY ACADEMY is located in Willingboro Township, in Burlington County, New Jersey. Ricardo currently offers lessons at Flex Gym, which is located on Route 130 near the Beverly Rancocas Road intersection,

http://www.ricardoalmeida.com/

http://www.renzogracie.com/

[shasan]

I'm still a little skeptical about the use of BJJ on the battle field... the last place I want to be is on the ground without ANY weapon, and if I'm brought down and don't even have a bayonet on me, I'd be gouging and biting and ripping instead of laying on an armbar or a keylock...

keep in mind I have no military training, but I've been trained by military guys.

[jules]

I'm still a little skeptical about the use of BJJ on the battle field... the last place I want to be is on the ground without ANY weapon, and if I'm brought down and don't even have a bayonet on me, I'd be gouging and biting and ripping instead of laying on an armbar or a keylock...

But sashan, combat sambo has alot of ground work and it's a military art used by a very effective military force. As for the "ground work".... From the footage i have seen, the military grappling is about getting a heel hook or some move quickly and breaking something.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Ok now the bowing and religion thing has entered the MMA forum by Kevin, a ban can't be far away

Tiiiiiim!!!!!!

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Originally posted by shasan
I'm still a little skeptical about the use of BJJ on the battle field... the last place I want to be is on the ground without ANY weapon

Dude... I hate to be the one who breaks this to you ... but not all GJJ/BJJ stuff is on the ground; it isn't an absolute must for it to be utilized.

[IPON]

True, possibly, but the philosophy of BJJ is to go to the ground and the few strikes/kicks that are used are basically for set-ups to go to the ground...that was according to Renzo Gracie. Again not Bashing BJJ. The reality is every martial art has value and can injure, maim or kill an oppnent. The point is what technique is good for the situtation.

Judo is is a valuable are for self defense, but if the practitcioner only stays with judo (which generally doesn't strike/kick or the artists are not comfortable with it) They can be vunerable to striking becuase they are not used to striking. From a grappling perspective, if someone throws a punch, I close the gap I may take oout the leg (morote gari, or kuchiki-taoshi) or use a series of throws. But this is is reality for the street and I would assume combat (military people please let me know if I am way off target). The simple reality is that while taking an oppnent to the ground and attaking with locks, breaks or kicks, YOU Never want to go to the ground and should aviod at all costs. Now fights can end on the ground and that where BJJ, judo, JJ, Aikido, Hapkido, westling, etc are useful. And I will acknowlege that as a style BJJ will, all things equal, be the superior art on the ground again, leg and ankle techniques are very usuful. But the problem with BJJ is that the philosophy is to finish on the ground the other styles (well maybe except wrestling) is to stand up ASAP.

When you are on the ground you are committed and committed to one person, and generally this assumes an average person with no experience. I train assuming people are already skilled fighters, MA or MMA's. And when fights happen it is rarely one person even if it starts that way. I was envolved is a club fight and the bouncer was throwing the guy out and they, after rolling down the stairs went to the ground when I showed up to help, the girlfriend was kicking the boucer in the head with these pointy (stiletto?like) shoes his head was bleeding (and yes they both were not experienced or he would have know how to choke) but it just illustrates a point why always thinking ground first is not realistic in street fighting, MMA Tournaments, Hell ya.....make 'em tap

The other issue is the legal issue and excessive force. Due to the difference in time the it can take to get an armbar/break on the ground versus an armbar/break versus stand-up......would that generally be considered excessive force? I am just curious about this scenerio if anyone has any opinions.

Sorry for the long reply.

[kevin green]

Originally posted by Sean Dempsey
I believe his point is to discredit Gracie JJ, saying that it is just a cheap, disrespectful, knock-off of traditional Judo (ala, pointing out that BJJ people don't bow, and neglect areas of Judo that he feels are crucial and traditional).

I PERSONALLY THINK THAT THE GRACIES ARE DOING A TREMENDOUS ALOT OF GOOD. AT LEAST THEY ARE TRYING TO IMPROVE THEIR SPORT . I AM JUST TRYING TO ADD MY OPINION AND GENERATE DISCUSSION. I JUST DON'T TOTALLY AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THEY DO OR SAY.
PLUS ITS NOT JUST THE GRACIES THEY DON'T HAVE A MONOPOLY. AND IN THE VERY FIRST U.F.C. WHICH I HAVE THE TAPE, ROYCE IS INSTANTLY RECONIZABLE AS A VERY COMPETANT JUDO MAN. HEY THROWS ARE HARD TO EFFECT ,YOU DO WHAT YOU CAN.

BY THE WAY NOBODY GIVES JUDO CREDIT FOR THEIR EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE AND VERY PUNISHING HOLD-DOWNS!

[Lizard]

Originally posted by kevin green


I PERSONALLY THINK THAT THE GRACIES ARE DOING A TREMENDOUS ALOT OF GOOD. AT LEAST THEY ARE TRYING TO IMPROVE THEIR SPORT . I AM JUST TRYING TO ADD MY OPINION AND GENERATE DISCUSSION. I JUST DON'T TOTALLY AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THEY DO OR SAY.
PLUS ITS NOT JUST THE GRACIES THEY DON'T HAVE A MONOPOLY. AND IN THE VERY FIRST U.F.C. WHICH I HAVE THE TAPE, ROYCE IS INSTANTLY RECONIZABLE AS A VERY COMPETANT JUDO MAN. HEY THROWS ARE HARD TO EFFECT ,YOU DO WHAT YOU CAN.

BY THE WAY NOBODY GIVES JUDO CREDIT FOR THEIR EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE AND VERY PUNISHING HOLD-DOWNS!

OK kevin, I am very pleased to see you making a post which does not contain any mention of bowing, squeling, the american fighting man, dictators or cowardly communist europeans. But COULD YOU PLEASE STOP SHOUTING! It's hard to read.