Put up or Shut Up!!!

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Originally posted by delbert
im definitely no grappling master, but
"absorb what is useful, discard what is useless"
i'll never have a gi on on the street. gi is for the gym and makes it all more interesting it semms due to the extra reportoire of locks that can be added.
i was told that to practice with a gi only makes you better when you take it off. any thoughts?

That isn't entirely true. Gi equivalents can be jackets, sweatshirts and flannel shirts. In fact, I was in a fight once where a the person I was fighting was wearing an open flannel shirt. Upon mounting him I grabbed his collar and pined in across his throat. As he tried to grab at my neck and throwing little punches I pushed down applying the choke. This is the most simple of chokes usually used to make a person move his hands from your GI in class. But this person had no idea what was going on. So rather than just grabbing my hand and pulling it from his neck, he panicked and flailed at me.

Within 15 seconds his eyes were rolling towards the back of his head and my friend had to pull me off of him. In retrospect is was one of the strangest fights I had ever been in. I didn't even throw a single punch, even from my completely dominate position; there simply wasn't a need to.

But aside from my story, there are many different things you could possible do. True, the idea of them wearing a jacket and whatnot is circumstantial, but so are most fights.

The reason I prefer to train with a GI even though I will almost never be in a fight with one is because I firmly believe it makes you a better fighter. Training with a Gi teaches you better ground balance and makes you more aware of where chokes can come from and where a persons hands are. It is true you can't be choked with a Gi like choke if you are not wearing one, but being used to this format will make you far more sensitive.

I simply believe a Gi will make you stronger in every way even though none of us will likely be fighting in one.

[Cain]

erhm.. not agreeing..

[Mr. Heel Hook]

What if I slip you a 5$?

[Sean Dempsey]

Training with a gi is like swimming with weights on.

When it's time to swim, suddenly you have no weights and everything is much easier.

The gi isn't worn to learn how to use it against your opponent, its used to learn to escape while your opponent is using it against YOU.

So that way, when the Gi is off, you are an escape master.


that's pretty simplified, but in BJJ, the gi is your handicap, not something that is an advantage you use against your partner. Sure, you *can* use it, and do, but moreso its so that you learn how to combat it being used against you, so like I said before, once the gi is off, it's like finally swimming without weights.

[Cain]

ask a swimming coach if your swimming technique gets better from training with weights.. or if it is just a strenght matter..

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Cain, were you aware that probly 90% of BJJ guys who fight trainwith their GI when prepairing for a NHB event? Now I am not saying that's all they train in, but they do do it a lot.


There is a reason ya'know...

[delbert]

all excellent replies. and when i did grapple with a gi after never using one, i sweated about 3 lbs off trying to get away from everybodies hold on my sleeve that i was not used to having there. i felt like a target for awhile until i realized how to use their grip against them. it was very humbling considering they did not allow strikes when i just wanted to punch them in the face to make them let go like i was used to so i could stand up and punish them.

[Cain]

mr heel hook, did you know that no shootfighters, thaiwrestlers, shooto.. and so on.. trains with gi?

[Sean Dempsey]

Cain-

Instead of being rhetorical, why not just reply to posts?

It's just an analogy, maybe it's not 100% accurate, but it paints a picture. I have no idea if swimming with weights makes you a better swimmer. But I can sure as hell bet that it's alot harder to swim with weights than without.

But if you feel like nitpicking analogies, how about this: Training with a gi makes BJJ easier once you take the gi off.

having a GI makes it easier for the opponent to grab me.. choke me with the GI

Correct, and the gi teaches you to DEFEND effectively. Once you take it off, not only do you have the added defensive knowledge, but also you aren't handicapped by the gi either! If you can learn to defend and escape WITH a gi on, you sure as hell can without one. It only helps your game.

no shootfighters, thaiwrestlers, shooto.. and so on.. trains with gi?

I speak about BJJ and BJJ only. The Gi is a part of the Gracie way, and that is why I wear it and will continue to wear it. If it is not a part of other sports, great. It is a part of mine.

And I bet it'd be damn hard to swim with a gi on

[jitzmandala]

to gi or not to gi

NHB fighters train without a gi because they fight without a gi in the ring.

I wear clothes. Rarely do I walk to the grocery in spandex....

Now with that said, please let me explain myself.

I train with a gi 90% of the time. For me the gi offers a multiplied number of techniques BASED on the anatomical framework offered in no gi grappling.

The anatomical framework is the basis of ALL styles of combat, but throw a jacket on over it, and you now have a system of pullies around your body that can work for or against you. It's up to you how it works.

Thus, from my perspective, grappling w/ no gi is a faster game. Slippery when wet. Easier to attack and defend with attributes such a speed and strength. That isn't to say it's not 'technical'. Just look at the ADCC. Of coarse grappling is technical - BUT...

For every technique that no-gi offers, a gi gives you a dozen more choices. For me, I choose to keep myself actively involved in finding those choices with the gi. When I take my gi off, I'm reminded what the base framework of those choices are. Those choices to not cease to exist by taking the gi off, but if I train without a gi, my perception of other options is dulled after a while.

From a defensive standpoint, it is much harder to grapple in a gi as you have to be actively defending grips, while working to gain ground. In my opinion the ability to defend grips while gaining ground requires an increased sensitivity to technicalities that no gi does not offer.

Here's my list of thoughts on gi and no-gi grappling.

Gi:

1. More friction, less slipery.
2. Multiplied number of grips
3. Multiplied number of techniques USING the gi. (chokes/ sweeps/ etc)
4. Technical knowledge is increased via dealing with an opponents attachment to you.
5. Defense must be technical, not based on an attribute.

No-gi:

1. Fast Fast Fast!
2. Easier to defend submissions (in my opinion)
3. Easier to defend grips. (slippery / no cloth)
4. Easier to defend chokes. (no collar)
5. More of a 'core' game with much less trickery.

I do not believe that either game is 'better' then the other. It is good to train in both. For me, I choose to train with a gi 90% of the time simply because I LOVE the nuances the gi offers in EVERY position. The increase in leverage that is offers you over an opponents or training partner can not be duplicated without one. Sometimes if my training partners are cool with it, I'll just wear my gi, and they will be no-gi, and I'll see how I can use my gi. There are some chokes from the rear position you can get with your own skirt that generate a LOT of leverage on the neck. You can even just go right thru a hand defense if they manage to get a hand/fingers in. It doesn't matter.

Just my .02 cents. Good training to you all.

Dave in Oregon

[jitzmandala]

Originally posted by Cain
mr heel hook, did you know that no shootfighters, thaiwrestlers, shooto.. and so on.. trains with gi?

Cain: Is it your opinion that shootfighters, taiwrestlers and shooto, among others, are as effiecient as using clothing to submit their opponents, as those who train specifically with a gi?

Just curious, wasn't sure what your observation of those styles was meaning...

Dave

[Cain]

well, since someone mentioned NHB-competition, i replied to that.. and sean, I'm not being 'rethorical' I'm answering.. and well, I don't believe in armbars/chokes and the likes on the street.. so I see no other application for it.. I'm a fan of the "ofcourse we train on the ground, we train for getting up as fast and effective as possible" when it comes to the street.. trying to use a collar choke when the one being choked is stabbing you multiple times is quite hard i have heard.. so it comes down to:

if you compete with gi? train with gi...
if you compete without gi? drop the gi...
if you want to be the badest mofo on the street? buy a gun and get a pair of ray-bans..

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Originally posted by Cain
mr heel hook, did you know that no shootfighters, thaiwrestlers, shooto.. and so on.. trains with gi?

Perhaps you failed to see that I said BJJ guys... other than that, I have nothing else to say. It seems everyone else said it for me. Especialy that Dempsey fellow.

[Mr. Heel Hook]

And another thing!

[Cain]

i saw that you mentioned the bjj guys... kind of my point.. but nevermind..