Are most of the top NHBers mainly Tape Trainers??

[Darren]

It seems funny but it's true.

If you define tape training as gaining material from tapes, as opposed to training under a true "master" and then just working out with some guys and developing your own stuff, then almost all of the top guys are TAPE TRAINERS.

Now all the lowly tape trainers out there can feel good about themselves.

Look at the top wrestlers RAW, HH, Henderson/Couture, or the Miletich guys, the Lion's Den, Shamrock, Tito, really ANY of the new groups of fighters. What do they really train with???

They don't train under any Blackbelts per se. They surely don't get their technique directly from "Masters". They may train periodically with NAME martial artists, but the bulk is just picking up some stuff here and there, from instructional tapes, from competition tapes, from periodic access to "real" martial arts Teachers, etc. Then they go back and just roll around a lot with their training partners and see what works themselves.

I think it is ironic that such a shift has occured.

I was always skeptical when people kept claiming that you NEED TO BE under a certified BB to learn anything, blah, blah, blah. Everyone was in utter disbelief when Evan Tanner came out and admitted he was basically self trained from tapes, etc. It's no surprise at this point! THAT whole line about NEEDING to be with a "REAL" master to learn has been proven to be BS.

There is FAR more technical info out there on tapes than ANYONE will EVER be able to use in a fight. EVER. It is ALL THERE, it is now just a matter of working with it long enough, with great athletes, and good learners and you can become great on your own more or less. It is more about strategy and becoming great at basic technique that EVERYONE has access to learn.

Miletich is seen as the MAN as a trainer, but what are his credentials from a truly technical TEACHING standpoint. Not great. But it doesn't matter at all!!!! He is a great teacher and his guys kick serious ass.

So as funny as it may seem to some, the world's best fighters all tend to be mere "Tape Trainers". What a weird turn of events.

[Ryu (non-working password]

LOL, got no problem with that.

Makes me feel cooler

(they do seek out big names to train with though...you have to. I don't think anyone can learn from tapes alone. I sure wouldn't advise it.)

Ryu

[Hookah Smokin Caterpillar]

All those guys train under guys like Mark Coleman, Ken Shamrock and Pat Militech. Mark Coleman is the equivelant of a black belt in wrestling and Ken is the equivelent in shootfighting. I don't know much about Pat because I usually fast forward his fights, but I'm guessing he's the equivelant in wrestling or MMA. You're thinking of a "master" as someone that has to have a black belt, when in reality you can get better training from a purple belt then a Mario Sperry tape. I used to do all my studying from watching Royce Gracie fight in the UFC, that doesn't mean I knew how to Triangle Choke properly with the right hip movements.

[Darren]

Yeah, but you don't need a BB to teach you how to move your hips properly, you just need a good skilled group of training partners and the time to work out and figure it out yourself, with the tips from tapes or some privates.

My whole point is that you don;t need to have ANY "Martial Art" credentials to be the among the world's best at Mixed MARTIAL ARTS.

[Patterson]

Tito has trained under Joe Moreira for quite a while...

[Evilution]

I totally agree Darren. Evan Tanner is self taught and his record is like 22-2 or something, that's pretty good. I heard that John Lober got his start by sending tapes to fight organizations of him training with people in his garage. With a good set of tapes, some insight and common sense, and lots time spent practicing you can become a very good fighter without ever having sought a guru or bb.

[Mr. Miyagi]

I agree that a shift has occurred. However, the important point is that these guys are constantly training and sparring. Regarding Evan Tanner, I'm sure he has training buddies also that he works with, he probably doesn't sit at home eating popcorn and watching tapes.

[Darren]

I disagree! i have heard that most of these guys ONLY watch tapes...and don't really roll at all.

[Ryu (non-working password]

What???
Are you serious? That can't be true....

I am an avid tape watcher too, but NEVER rolling?
You need experience. Your body has to learn how to do the moves not just your memory.
I'm not doing much rolling right now, but I get friends together whenever I can.

Are you absolutely sure they just watch them and don't roll? That doesn't sound right....

Ryu

[Guest]

I was a tape guy for several years and there is no question that after you collect 4-5 sets of instructional videos, you've got a lifetime of work ahead of you. I was also able to progess rapidly when I finally got to a place where I could take classes because of the time I spent with tapes.
However, real grappling with BB instructors gave me experience, perspective, and a reality check that I would have never gotten off tapes alone. Haven't heard from you for awhile bro Darren, what's the latest???

[Darren]

Ryu,

It's TRUE! Most NHBers NEVER train at all, they just sit around watching tapes, and then show up at the arena ready to rumble. They also watch tapes on working out so they don't have to lift weights or do cardio.

But seriously, once you have the Know-How broken out for you it is really a matter of repetition ad infinitum, and making small distinctions and variations.

When you have a group of guys as talented as Horn, Hughes, Miletich, Pulver, etc., all working out together all the time, then you can be damned sure that they will be able to learn it all to a VERY high level. Like they say once you know the basics and you have ingrained them, then you can actually figure out what's best for you. As of NOW, ALL of the basics as well as advanced stuff is out there in the form of tapes which can be supplemented by training with "specialists"/BB's on a periodic basis.

I think the MORE important thing is having really athletic and challenging people to train with consistently.

[tuffguy]

I seriously hope that this post is just trolling. Tanner is the only guy I've heard of that trains with tapes. All these other guys train with reall people. There is only so much you can learn from tapes, they leave out a lot of details, and rarely give you too many options when the technique is countered. Miletich trained with Nelson Monteiro and Rodrigo Gracie for quite some time, he was definatly a purple belt, not sure if he ever got brown, was a very good wrestler. At Miletich's they also train with pro boxing and kickboxing coaches. Jeremy Horn has also gone to Renzo's to train at times. They also have Amaury Bitetti training with them now, so I don't see this idea that they are self taught there by instructional tapes. Lions den guys are trained by K. Shamrock, who learned from Funaki and others in Japan. they also have pro boxing and kickboxing coaches that come in, as well as many of the guys have trained under "masters" in striking before the Lion's Den(Williams, Mezger, White, Andrade....). Raw team are all top level wrestlers, they also have pro boxing and kickboxing coaches that work with them. Chiaparelli, who trained all the guys there trained with Renzo for a while before forming the RAW team. Your logic is really weak here, if you periodicaly train with someone that is tape training? How do you figure?

[Newbie]

"They don't train under any Blackbelts per se."

That's because the most effective martial arts, with the exception of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, do not have belt ranking systems. Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai etc. do not have belt ranking systems.

[Edited by Newbie on 11-21-2000 at 05:58 AM]

[Jaguar Wong]

LOL, Darren. Maybe I should watch the Tae Bo tapes, so I can shed a few pounds. While I'm at it, I should also be watching some classic kung fu flicks so I can fly around and kick some butt!

Anyways, everything I learned from a tape didn't work all that well until I understood the basic principles of grappling. I worked real hard on basic survival skills so I wouldn't be tapping out all day (I'm still waiting for those to kick in), but I've always looked for an opening to try something that I saw on a tape. I used a guard pass that I learned from the Gracie tapes, and a Marco Ruas tape. They only worked against the guys at my skill level (almost nothing), and I was in danger of a serious triangle every time I tried the gracie one. I have passed the guard succesfully a few times using them, and I've never given up the triangle, but I was caught in an armbar using the Marco Ruas one against someone who actually has skills (I also took a heel to the forehead when I hit the mat face-down tapping ).

I like trying crazy stuff that I see in tapes every once and a while, but the stuff that works the best for me is the stuff that I learn while I'm there, or the stuff from other styles I do like chin na (joint locks from kung fu) and Tai Chi (helps me to relax so I don't use so much effort fighting my way out of submissions, but it's harder to apply on the ground). I'll always be sneaking in moves from tapes, but I'll rely on my real world partners to develop my skills.