Who are the most overrated fighters?

[Benjamin Dover]

Kimo can't roll. I rolled with that wuss and tapped him out. As for Rickson....what a joke. I slapped him and he cried!!! Anyone who says these guys are wusses...well...I'd love to see them go 1 round in the ring with either of them.

[adacas]

I heard that shamrock is a coke head now. Just some rumors I heard from people who have met him.

[Heel-hook]

Originally posted by adacas
I heard that shamrock is a coke head now. Just some rumors I heard from people who have met him.

Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear.

[MrPoopy]

Spanky is the most overated fighter.

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Originally posted by Mr. Miyagi
I may as well be one of the blue belts that he smacks around in a seminar, but I'm judging him on what he does in the elite MMA world.

Dude, he slaps around Black Belts, not blue belts.

Aside from that, who are any of you to question his 400-0 record when it is backed up by family (of course) and rivals? The fact is he is able to HANDLE people who are incredible fighters.

You pointed out in another post it took Sakuraba over an hour to defeat Royce.

Also, in the Renzo Saku fight Renzo was clearly winning the over all fight until he did something foolish.

Both these people are beaten in under 5 minutes by Rickson. Do the math and see why it is easy to hypothesize that Rickson is the strongest inside the clan and the same done outside of the clan.

Has MMA fighting changed so much that he can't compete? No, to say otherwise is absurd, or if you will, something an ass licking Gracie hater such as yourself would say.

As for his age, it sure as hell has something to do with it. If you were 40 and were 400 and zero, would you just put your legacy on the line for just the hell of it? No, you better get paid well.

But whatever, I could go on and on and so could you and nothing will get resolved. You will just call me names or something and I will point out how you are ignorant again and again ... so why further it?

So I have said my piece... cept, I was looking for someone to ride my jock, are you interested?

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Oh, and I think Ken is the most over rated fighter I can think of...

[adacas]

Ken shamrock of who I was referring to earlier is probably one of the most overated without a doubt. I remember when he went against Royce Gracie. He didn't even fight in the the tournament but somehow got to fight gracie in the end. Poor gracie was all tuckered out from kicking the crap out of all the other guys. Also lets not mention his poor WWF career. His last comeback shows that the guy has heart but it takes more than heart to win a match. I know because my heart is enlarged and will probably end up killing me in the end.

[falcon3624]

Yea, Ken Shamrock. Although his brother Frank I would not mess with. I had heard that he was here in La. one time not all that long ago training with some guys and one of them rolled with Frank and made Frank look like a punk.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Heel Hook, I agree with you on a few things. First of all, about Ken Shamrock. I also agree that many top bjj players defer to Rickson, including other Gracies, Saulo Ribeiro, and Fabio Gurgel. Sperry and co. don't revere him as much, but that's a different discussion. Bjj sparring and MMA fighting are completely different. Rickson played around with Vitor Belfort when they rolled, but if they fought MMA, Rickson would be in for a war and could very well get KO'd standing. I can't see him taking Belfort down, Belfort would sprawl and unleash some cannons. Without striking, Rickson can roll and use his unparalleled technique comfortably, but with striking everything changes. Rickson has fought one known mma fighter in the last ten years, Funaki. There is no reason he should be considered an elite MMA fighter as there are big time MMA fighters fighting and proving what they got all the time.

Wallid Ismail took about five minutes with Royce, which just proves that bjj is bjj and mma is mma. Wallid made a ridiculous statement that he wasn't impressed with Sakuraba on the grounds that it only took him five minutes to defeat Royce whereas it took Sak an hour and a half. Sak would kill Wallid.

I disagree that Renzo was winning on points against Sak. He couldn't take him down and his standup didn't threaten Sak at all. Sak played it perfectly and waited for an opening. He tried that standing kimura on Royce and it didn't work, but it worked on Renzo.

[Mr. Heel Hook]

Yes, I totally agree with you that BJJ and MMA are two different animals in many different aspects. However. lets not forget that BJJ has the ability to defend very well against what you spoke of (Vitor sprawling and unleashing those fearsome hammers), look at who we are talking about -- the Gracies.

They have been beaten before, that's not in question, and in truth it is a testament in what they have done to change the MMA world. But, regardless of their losses, none of them have ever taken a beating. You know what I mean, right? They don't leave the ring in a bloody mess and in general don't get knocked out.

Rickson certainly stands in that category. And even still, he proved he can really take a punch. When he got clubbed in the eye by Funaki, it broke his orbital lobe. The fact he finished the fight is another proof of his excellence. It's not only his fighting ability through body that should be admired, but his incredible focus and absolute mental fortitude.

The MMA world is very different now, there is absolutely no denying that. But what everyone brings up is the blend of striking and grappling and how it makes strikers more vulnerable to the KO. But look back, and tell me when you have seen a Gracie leave the ring a bloody pulp? It hasn't happened yet.

Rickson has also proven one thing above the rest of the Gracies, he can punch -- hard. I have no idea about his technique with striking, but, he coils around his opponent so tight that it's almost impossible for them to move. At this point, he punches them picking his shots. Face, ribs, kidneys, etc,etc. His punches look as hard as steel and are far more impressive looking than even Ryan's.

As for Wallid, he is still living off his defeat of Royce. In part, I think his defeat was based on luck. No one knew what a clock choke was and he caught Royce in a lucky move. Should Royce regardless of his ignorance of the clock choke been able to defend it? Yeah, I would say so, but still it shows a a good amount of luck involved.

I never knew Wallid said that about Saku. All I have to say to that is..."Right". Wallid is very VERY good in the Gi. But the fact is, Saku would ruin his life. Like I said, he is still living off his win over Royce from years ago.

He friggen lost to Alex Stiebling and Akira Shoji. Walid should keep his mouth shut after those losses. The only real thing I like about Walid is he is a very loyal guy to Carlson after BTT (Brazilian Top Team) fooked him over.

And as for Renzo and Saku. Renzo had way more kicks and punches against Saku. Saku defended well against the ground game by staying away from it mostly and keeping it on his feet. Renzo defended well against Saku's vicious leg kicks (things look like they could cut a tree down) by getting up in the classic Gracie defensive way rather than staying there and getting leg kicked for an hour (Royce????).

[falcon3624]

I can think of a lot of guys that I would consider overated fighters and Rickson is just not one of them. I think he has the best Jiu-Jitsu out of all the Gracies plus he has the ability to strike. I have seen some of his previous matches and he appears to have a pretty hard punch and there is no denying his power with punching. I have seen several Rickson matches where his opponent left in a bloody pulp.

I think in the match with Royce vs. Sak if Royce would not have went with the gi it might have been a little different. Seemed like when watching it Sak was really taking advantage of Royce's gi and using it against him left and right. I never could understand why Royce always wore the gi into the ring but whatever. Renzo is a good fighter and I think he did a pretty good job against Sak but what can you do? Win some, loose some.

Probably the biggest problem with Sak is after the first win over a Gracie he mindskrewed the rest of them because they were not used to defeat like that. I always said I would like to see Rickson against Sak because I think he would take back the name "Gracie Hunter".

[MMA fanatic]

Rickson Gracie is just not a overrated fighter.............

[NHBMARK1]

Look,

Believe me, I understand (especially now) where Rickson's the only (I believe) undefeated Gracie & why mess with that.
But...
Royce & Renzo are (were) out there against Sakuraba, (where was Rickson when he was the most logical guy to fight Sakuara?)

I realize he's a great stylist & fighter, just not what the hype makes him out to be.

His record is 400-0, right?

Ok then,
I challenge anybody out there to do one thing.
Name me just 10 %, just 40 fights he had.
Name the fighters & their records & I'll shut up.

Don't forget Randy Couture (best current over 40 year old example) is out there, not just fighting nobody's either.

Does anybody accept my challenge??

[falcon3624]

They say Rickson's record is like 400-0 but he includes all challenges, matches, street fights and everything. Wether it all be in the ring or all be on the street that is still an impressive record. I have seen Rickson's abilities and I think his Jiu-Jitsu is the best out of all the Gracie's I mean on the ground the guy is almost unstopable. Rickson's technique is flawless and he has good speed and power as well and that makes for a tough fighter. I think the reason that he finally gave up on fighting NHB and stuff was because he (like Royce) had some disagreements about the time limits and thus forth (from what I hear). Not to mention the fact that he wanted to focus more effort on teaching and his association.

If I had to choose the one Gracie who I thought would have the best chance against someone like Sak I would go with Rickson. Royce's style is just too slow on stand up for Sak and Royce is not a very good striker either. As far as Renzo I think he is pretty good at stand up fighting and pretty good at grappling but doesn't really shine all that great in either. Don't get me wrong he has enough to beat the crap out of most guys but just not to go out there and face someone like Sak who is obviously a good fighter that has a very strange style. I saw an interview one time where they were talking to a guy that fought Sak (don't remember who it was) and they were talking about how hard he was to fight because he flowed like water from one thing to another.

If you watch Sak when he fights he is really fast and shoots from one area of his game to another with ease. I mean anyone that can go from stand up down to grappling that easy and has the speed he has is going to be a tough competitor. Although he has lost to Silva two times but then again you are taking someone that has a vicious stand up game and pitting him against another fast paced fighter. I think that Sak might have underestimated Silva the first time they fought, but there is not doubt the rematch was for real. Who knows though some fighters just have that one person they always have trouble with wether they are good or not, but I think Silva is a devestating fighter but I never thought he would beat Sak.

[MMA fanatic]

I've seen Rickson Gracie fight in the early WVT japan days and in pride fc, he's been impessive and easy moving with his oppenents. The man has a record of 400-0 as Mr Heel hook said ''why risk the legacy'', he's obviously past his best at his age so there is no reason to risk his hard earned reputation that has taken him many years to achieve. The only reason, with all due respect randy couture carries on is because it won't make a diffrence to him whether he wins or losses his fights as long as he fights but the same can't be said about Rickson as it will make a diffrence to his much impressive 400-0 record.