MT & SanShou differences applicable for street defense

[Ello]

Sanshou standards are not up to par with that of Kick boxing,

Ok, that part I have to disagree on. In the past there have been matches between USA(kickboxing) and China(San Da) and USA has never won. The last time they were defeated 4:0.

BTW HuSanYan, the chinese that knocked the thai out was baoligao, a (mongolian) chinese king of sanda. Source: http://crane.50megs.com/index6x.htm

That site has a lot about the matches of San Da vs (other styles). And while the site still favors Muay thai over San Da, San Da did defeat Muay thai more often than the other way around(even if it was by points)

[Dpendleton]

I for one use to take Taekwondo(not bashing),but after taking a Muay Thai class I am hooked.

[HuSanYan]

Originally posted by Tom Yum
I think chin na would be a good skill to add to muay thai/san shou.

Chin na involves fine motor skills; attacking arteries, nerve endings, ripping at anatomically weak parts of the body.

So the san shou vs. muay thai debate continues....

Tom Yum, can't say I know anything about Chin na, I will do some looking into that style, attacking arteries eh!?, sounds pretty damn vicious

S Anucha, the data above was taken from various sources, i can't remember them all off by hand but i knew i had read some actual ring fight results where the SanShou had indeed won, and i am sure some of those fights were under full MT rules.

anyway, guys, my thread here is not so much MT vs SS as such but more a detailed look at the specific stand up grappling differences, again, specifically with self defense in mind, and i thought i would back it up so to speak with some of the results posted above.

on a seperate note, what do you guys think about a nice new thread entitled
"The Unadulterated, Systematic & Categoric Uselessness of BJJ" in the mixed forum??, any votes???, i have some theories and details to back this up (well a bit, of course i wouldnt be "Trolling" at all

[Tom Yum]

I think chin na would be a good skill to add to muay thai/san shou.

Chin na involves fine motor skills; attacking arteries, nerve endings, ripping at anatomically weak parts of the body.

So the san shou vs. muay thai debate continues....

[S.Anucha]

well damn thats good shit, I never even heard of those fights.

of course take this with a pinch of salt, more of an example!

"In the K1 fighting circuit today, the Muay Thai skill of 3x Champion Peter Aerts continues to dominate the ring. Why do we never see any Sanshou fighters ever competing in K1? One of the reasons why 'Sanshou' in Sport Wushu exist as it is today is due to the many defeats by Kung Fu fighters at the hands of Thai boxers in the past few decades. Sanshou today is virtually a watered down version of amateur Muay Thai. This shows an unwilling admittance of the superiority of Muay Thai techniques & the importance of contact sparring. Though inadequate, it is the best Sport Wushu can offer in reality application. Like amateur Thai boxers, Sanshou competitors are clad in padding from head to toe, but unlike them, they are disallowed elbow & knee attacks. Worse, they are not even allowed to use continuous strikes. Sanshou fighters are only allowed the low roundhouse kicks from the Muay Thai arsenal. Stand-up grappling in Sanshou is adequate, but it would still not be enough against Muay Thai. As a result, put an amateur Thai boxer & Sanshou fighter of similar experience together & the former would almost surely win. Why do the advocates of Sanshou not try to improve on this?"


and :

"Kung Fu experts who fought with Thai boxers through the years always found themselves defenceless against a barrage of low/high roundhouses & elbow/knee strikes in the ring. Some of these experts had tremendous power - they could smash rocks & bricks with bare hands. Yet none of this power prove to be of any use at all in the face of rapid Muay Thai combos. Most of them could not even get a single blow to connect at all. On the other hand, Thai boxers see all sorts of openings in their rigid stances & took advantage of these to great effect. Almost all those Kung Fu fighters lost by knockout. What is the significance of these complete defeats?"

and more :

"The deciding technique that destroys Kung Fu fighters is commonly a roundhouse to the face/ abdomen/ thigh, or knee strikes up close in the ribs. Traditional Kung Fu attacks & defenses were proven to be way obsolete in the world of martial arts today. The inability to fully utilize the legs, & a lack of sparring practice are the greatest weaknesses of old Kung Fu systems. Obviously Kung Fu had neglected leg technique development for more than a millenium, or perhaps they were just too fancy. The Thais have been practicing & perfecting the use of their shins & knees for hundreds of years. They know how to defend against all kinds of attacks, & their bodies & minds are fully conditioned by daily sparring. How could Kung Fu ever bridge this big gap, unless it humbly learns from the strengths of Muay Thai?"

and some more :

"Bruce Lee was the 1st to see the inadequacies of following blindly the old traditions. He knew that Kung Fu badly needed reform, or faced becoming a vase - nice to behold & keep, but innately fragile & hardly useful. Sport Wushu is perhaps a touched up, modernized version, but essentially still a vase. Sanshou is a half-hearted attempt at reform at best. It is indeed laughable that the Central Govt in China would want today's Wushu to be an Olympic event. Do these communists want to boast to the world how inadequate our 4 thousand-year martial traditions have become?"

and lastly :

"Learning from Muay Thai doesn't mean we must all give up on our heritage & become Thai boxers in order to be useful. It means to mend the weaknesses of our traditions with the strengths of Muay Thai. The Japanese did this to their karate & invented Kick boxing, whereas the Chinese came up with Sanshou. Sanshou standards are not up to par with that of Kick boxing, still less even to that of Muay Thai. The kind of Sanshou we need is one that is without pads, one that is unashamed to combine Kung Fu & Muay Thai"

HuSanYan, these comments were taken from "A History of Kung Fu VS Muay Thai",

I do, however, fully understand and appreciate that all fighting systems have weaknesses, hell even Muay thai has its weakneses as a martial art but thats because its primary arena is the ring but nevertheless it is still as formidable a fighting system outside the ring as it is inside.


after doing a couple of classes of KungFu years ago just before I started in Muay Thai I knew something wasnt right, I mean it lacked everything Muay Thai has, maybe the teacher was crap or maybe I was crap but after doing one night at Muay Thai i knew Thai boxing was very different than shitfu, sorry kungfu!

[HuSanYan]

SS vs. MT in thailand earlier this year

the following 3 - 2 win for SS out of 5 fights in Thailand details.....

Bangkok, Thailand
August 8, 2003

After a hiatus that was not completely explained, the competition between China's King of San Da athletes and professional Muay Thai fighers from Thailand continued on August 8, 2003 in Bangkok, Thailand. These matches are part of the "championship round" which honestly we're not really sure what it means.

While the first few events were the subject of some controversy, recent events have run smoothly. After the event in Guangzhou in September of last year, the Thailand team stated publicly that they believed the refereeing and judging had been was fair. The Chinese team has also begun securing victories in the purest and most unquestionable form, they have knocked out some of their Thai opponents.

The matches followed the same “China vs. the World” format that the other events had. Kicks, punches, knees, elbows and throws of all kinds were legal. China received concessions in that the elbows would be padded and the clinch limited to 5 seconds. Thailand asked and received a modification allowing kicking to the groin. The center referee was Thai, the judges were a mixture of Thai and Chinese.

China wins this competition by the score of 3 wins to 2 losses.

56 kg: China by 5 RD decision
60 kg: China by 5 RD decision
65 kg: Thailand by 5 RD decision
70 kg: Thailand by TKO (referee stoppage) RD 3
75 kg: China by KO RD 2

The final match at 75 kg was particularly interesting. While some have complained that the Chinese only seek to win based upon points, in this match the action was constant and aggressive. The Thai fighter remained on the canvas even after the count of ten, a rare event indeed. This forced a stretcher to be brought into the ring. We do not know at this time specifics but know the Thai was sent to the hospital. Hopefully he is alright and will fight again soon.

(I always said MT was downright useless

[S.Anucha]

they are exactly the people I am talking about! damn man I didnt think anyone would have created a name for these kinds of people...

...hell I aint no tough guy but I aint no friggen push over either!


that is a fantastic site! haha.

this is funny, acvtually reminds me of some people around here!

and Sanshimmy guy I aint talking aboot you!!!

quoted :

"Fighting with pool cues, eh? I've done that, but if memory serves, my technique was closer to Florentine sword and dagger. The lighter pointy end forward, and low to parry, and nice heavy end high to strike with. Of course, I couldn't cut, or stab, so the strikes where a lot less linear. It may sound kind of unorthodox, but I was outnumbered, so I wanted to put on as much show as I could."


(edited)

Sanshimmy, did you think I was in the army? No man I would have loved to have joined when i was younger but didnt get round to it and now, well now i am too old for it. But yeah those Royal marines and Paras are a tough bunch of crazies, my friend, who also trained with me in the same gym, came back for a month... no joking his determination and will to carry on amazed me, he wasnt really good at the old kicking and stuff but he didnt give up at all! really he is like a machine, he would carry on fast and hard when most of the guys would be near puking!

[HuSanYan]

hi there ryanhall,
yes thats the site or person that the VTG came from, I couldn't remember exactly, would have referenced it if I had.

Plenty of funny stuff there as you say.

[ryanhall]

Virtual Tough Guy reference:

https://www.philelmore.com

He coined the phrase and has a whole article written up on them. Good site in general. Funny stuff.

[S.Anucha]

so you are a leather neck! Mate I dont think MA's made you tough I think rm's could have a major part to play in that.

My mate joined about 3 years ago, he fucking loves it!

[HuSanYan]

Originally posted by S.Anucha
our dear old British forces, what regiment did you serve in.
.....

would you like my credit card details along with full postal address & expiry date??

your words are those of a basic squaddy m8....you ask what regiment, sure

RM 42 Cdo Bde, initially......me was green on top & a Jedi Knight be I......

IPON , yes I came across that term some time ago on the net somewhere, quite appropriate in many cases, perhaps not unlike our jubb in this thread
regards

[IPON]

HuSanYan - VTGs - LOL spot on!!

[S.Anucha]

by the way I hope you know what origami is...! and I wasnt saying you were knocking Muay Thai just getting bored at the "this is better for street violence and this bla blabla bla" and as for being young and the hormones kicking in i take that as a compliment!

mate you army gits are nothing to be scared of! shit you are recruiting pussy assed student types now anyway the only respect I have is for the Para's and the Marines, those boyos kick butt!!! and they done a mighty fine Job up our neck o' the woods!

our dear old British forces, what regiment did you serve in.

I'm in Belfast (dont come off withthe paddy jokes now, or the boggy ones )newtonards road ring any bells? and I also grew up on a council Estate...

....I hope you dont tell me you served as a REME mechanic!

its turning into a right ol slagging deal....


.....

[HuSanYan]

TomYum I agree & I spend a lot of time in the UK as well & its harder to find than any other MA there, i have a feeling that it will catch on in time though.

S Anucha , I have no doubt that u could do as you say and I would be glad for you.

I know what u mean about 'theorists', I prefer to call them VTG's (Virtual Tough Guys).

As far as proving stuff, I don't need to.

After school I gave most of my youth to HM forces (thats the British forces, to you) 9 years in fact.
However before this period of abject slavery I grew up in Sth East London on 1 of the largest council estates (thats what I think you would name 'housing Project' or similar), needless to say that before becoming properly educated in life, the relative luxury of a ring with padded gloves was simply not the deal, certainly not in my old manor (hood).

Finally, if you slowed down a bit while reading my post, you would see that knees & elbows are indeed taught in many SS schools, or supposedly, and the whole tone of my post does not knock MT in anyway, in fact quite the opposite.

Oh well, I guess at your young age, its all hormone rushes, getting ready for the prom n' stuff ask your mom to prep a protein shake while you read slower,
best regards my son

[S.Anucha]

Re: MT & SanShou differences applicable for street defense

Originally posted by HuSanYan

I would very much like to add that IMHO, Sanshou is the better style for street self defence mainly due to the throws involved, whereas with MT (which is a great sport) once going into the clinch for knees & elbows to the midsection, the fighter might have a blind spot and thus not seeing a small hand held knife being thrust from below, to summarise this point, the stand up grappling of SanShou might serve better in reality, out of the ring.

Also, the emphasis on the side kick in SS rather than the MT roundhouse, should work more directly due to being a linear strike vs. the roundhouse which is a circular strike and that bit easier to spot coming.

However, San Shou is also a compete martial art that teaches striking, kicking, leg kicks, kick catches, sweeps, takedowns and throws. The current sport of San Shou does not include elbow and knee strikes but most San Shou gyms teach these techniques as well. (for those MT guys always going on about beloved knees & elbows

For these reasons, most of the recent Muay Thai vs. San Shou matches have been fought in the United States and under a wide variety of different rule formats. Most often, they have been fought under so-called US version of "international kickboxing rules" which allow neither elbows/knees nor throws. Thus, they provide little insight into the issues discussed here.

ok not knocking the US of A or anything but firstly USA is no place for a Thai boxing match, Thailand is the place for that or Holland. Damn they even changed the rules in some states cos they couldnt seem to beat pro Thai boxers who were coming from Europe or Thailand!!!


Ok Muay Thai is a sport, it originates from a Martial art, I mean you could go as far to say that Muay Thai inistelf is a martial art because it is so effective as a fighting art in or out of the ring! but considering that its a sport and has a fierce reputation amongst martial art experts speaks for itself.... dude the determined fighter, the strong fighter who fights with Muay Thai spirit and with ferocity and "venom" will ultimately be the better fighter even if he uses a 2 punch combo with a roundkick and an elbow, undertsand? I suppose you dont as you strike me as one of these theoretical martial artists who spend their time reading crap instead of actually fighting someone who can actually fight in the first place... tell me if I am wrong.

so.... 1. we have all came to the conclusion that its not the martial art that is winning fights but lo-and-behold its the bloody human being using the art!!!! I could be a knitting expert but fight like a dog, and anyhow if you want my honest opinion I really think there are more idiots than enough taking up martial arts and I blame that on hollywood!


You say this an dthat but mate take a little flight over to Thailand say to some promoter "you bro i am a Sanshimmy expert and I could kick your Thai fighters ass if you let me use my Sanshimmy on him", lol, just explain that he can do whatever he likes so long as you can do whatever you like and that includes a front side kick!!! haha


you said :

"(for those MT guys always going on about beloved knees & elbows "

well I say thats because they obviously dont work!! I mean how could anyone take elbows and knees seriously in a fight??? its just ludicrous to think that elbow and knee strikes are effective where as the front side kick is far superior because of the linear striking distance and all that, hell maybe I'll stick my finger up his arse... hmmm... how could we have all been so wrong!

at the end of the day ifyoiu train and blab about what this an dthat then bloody well go and prove it in a manly way, whip yer d.... hmmm I mean go to a ring and fight some git!



haha

By the way I am taking the piss.