Modern day fitness methods

[Nick1_S]

Hi all,

just wondering what your opinions are of fitness training in modern day martial arts. Due to the nature of our sports, there always seems to be an element of 'no pain no gain' sort of attitude. Obviousy this is an intense sport and requires training that prepares you for the requirements of a ring fight. So hard training is needed but I am sure that a more scientific approach could be implemented, rather than that of the 'old school'.

Coming from a background of other sports such as triathlon, and seperate running and cycling events, I am aware of the basic components of fitness training.

However, I have encountered many coaches that seem to lack any form of understanding in terms of fitness training. Its basically, train hard and train harder all the time. If it hurts, do it and then do it some more. There is no point training for hours and hours because it becomes counter productive. Overtraining and boredom are the problems with training too much!

Having trained in Thailand and seeing the way they train, I personally feel some of there regimes leave a lot to be desired. NOT in terms of their skills training, the Thais have been doing this for years and have excellent skills training as we all know.

The camp I stayed at seemed to do the same running twice a day, then the same skipping, pad work, etc. Day in day out, 6 days a week with Sunday off.
Suprised they dont just train every day! I was only there for a few weeks so maybe I am being a little hard on them. Maybe they do vary stuff a bit but I was not there long enough to see it. The body gets used to routine and craves variation.

Looking at programs my instructors have put together for my fights and collegues fights, it seems like they have lots of good ideas but just lack any knowledge of fitness training like tapering towards a competition. Training in this way just exhausts me because I just become progressively more tired after each day. The body needs rest to recuperate! I am sure we all know this though...

Have seen stuff like doing exercises between rounds etc. The whole point of the rest period is to allow the heart rate to reduce and for lactic acid to be removed so that the next work session can be carried out hard again. Therefore in the rest, you should just walk, jump around or shadow box a little to keep things moving. By exercising in this period, you cannot train as hard in the next session, so you will not overload the body as much and not get as fit.

During training for 1 fight that was 3 x 2 mins, our instructor was obsessed with doing 5 x 3 mins so we should find the 3 x 2 easy. Do you see runners applying the same philsosphy? No. I should train for the 400m coz then the 100m sprint will be easy. Most certainly not. Of course they run all different distances to keep stimulating the body to overload, but will not make a habit of any 1 practice. Training longer means less intense, its common sense. Really, I would suggest doing longer rounds to start with working on the endurance side, then moving towards shorter more intense bursts as the fight approaches. Rounds/sprints of all out 30secs to 1min will bring on further gains in fitness. The harder the work, the more rest is needed. So all volumous running, weights, etc should be cut back in the final 1 or 2 weeks.

Also, why should we all do the same training? We are all different and different people need different levels of rest. I realise this is hard to do in a class situation and is not really worth it but for induvidual fighters more attention should be paid to specific needs.

What do you guys think?

P.S

I have never seen a thai stretch before training. Only thing I have ever seen is that thing they do in the corner between rounds, where they pull their knee right up or their coach lifts their leg up really high. Dont know if this is because they are naturally flexible? They dont seem to pull muscles much like us foreiners. But then they start at like 8yrs old. Anyone know why?

[S.Anucha]

dude. I trained in Thailand for 4 months straight, the training is VERY reptitive... simple, thats how you get good! repeat, repeat and re repeat!

1 week is not enough, far from it.

You are kicking that much that the kicking initself becomes like a dynamic stretch, if you know anything about dynamioc stretching then you'd know that after sometime doing dynamic stretches you do not need to stretch in order to kick. Thats the whole point of doing dynamic stretching, you aint goiung to ask your opponent "...erm, hang on a sec till I stretch me legs so I can kick you...", no you are going to want to be able to kick high, cold and at anytime of the day. The Thai have that perfected.

They have very old ways of training, like simply jumping up and down on an old lorry tyre, or skipping for 30 minutes solid with a heavy plastic tube as a rope. They do things old way because the old way works! If it didnt work Thais wouldnt have 80% wins in Thaiboxing.

I dont know where you got the idea that they dont stretch from anyway, I stretched, no one made me do it I just done it myself, no one makes you do anything, they may ask you to jump in the ring to go 5 rounds but thats about it, or spar but Thai way is your way, you aint made to do anything.

"...During training for 1 fight that was 3 x 2 mins, our instructor was obsessed with doing 5 x 3 mins so we should find the 3 x 2 easy. Do you see runners applying the same philsosphy? No. I should train for the 400m coz then the 100m sprint will be easy..."

Fighting and running are not the same, lol, in fighting if you train longer rounds then its obvious you will find the fight easier. Running and sprinting use entirely different muscles so whay are you comparing the two when the two typoes of running require to differenbt kinds of training methdos.

If you fight 3X2 minutes or 5X3 minutes makes no difference, the training is the same because its fighting you will be doing.


What I sugest is that you lose the modern, track and feild athletic type training methods and chose more tried and tested fight training methods.

Thais train 6-7 days a week, Thais dont stretch before kicking because they dont need to, they are fully dynamic as it is. are you? The way they train has been tried and tested and works very well with great results. Its a professional life in Thaiboxing camps in Thailand. Not an easy life but one of the best ways you can develop your Thaiboxing technique and skill. It is always repetitive but thats the way its gotta be, you do rounds of pad work everyday, you do grappling work everyday, you do fitness work (which could be varied) everyday, you do your running, which in my opinion is the best form of exercise for Thaiboxing, everyday.... it will eventually get repetitive... such a small price to pay to get better.

Usually one day is set aside for your body to repair itself. Running is done on the balls of your feet and running is always done....

....dude, expect it to be very repetitive, you aint at an aerobics class you are learning how to professionally fight in Muay Thai.

oh yeah you said:

"...Have seen stuff like doing exercises between rounds etc. The whole point of the rest period is to allow the heart rate to reduce and for lactic acid to be removed so that the next work session can be carried out hard again. Therefore in the rest, you should just walk, jump around or shadow box a little to keep things moving. By exercising in this period, you cannot train as hard in the next session, so you will not overload the body as much and not get as fit..."

The reason why is to build your enudrance level for the fight, hoinestly, take my word for it, if you can do 5x7 minute rounds in training with exercise inbetween rounds and do it without much of a problem then when you do fight you will find it pretty easy, maybe not easy but a hell of a lot more endurable. Thats done for a reason. Everything is doen for a reason.


DYNAMIC stretching, you kick everyday for 2 hours expect that you wont need to strecth in order to kick high do dynamic strecthing everyday.... kicking is a weapon its a useless weapon if you need to warm your body and strecth before you can kick high.

[Nick1_S]

S.Anucha,

I am not arguing with any of the skills training or basic endurance training that the thais do. The jump rope and the lorry tyre with the hand weights (in our gym at least) was very good, basic training. We now have a lorry tyre in our gym This sort of thing is great for aerobic conditioning. It builds and maintains a base from which to build from.

The repetitive nature of the movements I have no problem with iether. By repping these out day after day it becomes second nature. I suppose its why the thais look so natural when they move/kick, etc.

These guys have been doing this for years and their impressive record as fighters shows as much. These methods have evolved through necessity and trial and error I am sure. Dont get me wrong, the way these guys train is far more realistic than any other fighting art. There are many good methods there that are tried and tested. All I am saying is that I believe there is room for a bit more science in terms of the fitness, to bring it a bit more up to date with modern research from sports science, etc.

The comparisson of the running was in terms of the methodology only. You should train in a 'specific' manner for your sport. So thats why I used the example of the running distances. So, training for amatuer fights (3x2) should be different than training for the proffesional fights (5x3). You should train in a manner that is going to emulate as much as possible the stress you will be put under in the competition. Speaking from my experience, there is no way I could do a 7min round as hard as I could do a 2min round. That is becoming seriously aerobic in terms of the metabolism used. We get that training from the running, which as you state is a seriously good fitness tool.

So, when I come to fight, ive got all this aerobic fitness, which is good. But when I come to blast it out using my anerobic system (ADP/ATP,phospocreatine - up to 30secs bursts) Im totally blown coz ive not done this training. Now if you are mixing longer rounds and shorter ones in your training then you have it covered

I still maintain that interval training, which is effectivly what your doing in terms of timed rounds, is best carried out with a complete rest period. That way next round you can train as hard as possible again, thereby stressing your body to get the maximum overload. If I have just blitzed my arms doing loads of press ups between rounds then my ability to punch, etc will be greatly diminished - which is the very thing I am trying to improve. Maybe you are one of those induviduals that does not appear to have a lactate threshold, believe me, although rare, they do exist...

About the stretching, I geuss what I meant was generall stretching of muscles. In Thailand, there was about 4 other westeners all outside 1st thing in the morning stretching our calves/thighs etc b4 the run. The thais basically stumbled out of bed into their run. Dont know how they did it! I agree with what you say about the dynamic stretching. Kicking is a dynamic movement, so we train that flexibility though kicking.

I am a relativley open-minded person (if there is such a thing) and am always willing to look over my shoulder to see whats happening in other arenas. If the training methods were bad, the guys would stumble into the ring exhausted and it would be a tired looking fight. These guys are in very good condition. But dont think that they/we could not be better....

[sslinky]

I think there is very much a no pain, no gain attitude. A lot of the posts on this forum read pretty much like that, but based on my own experience I would say that many of these training routines are counter productive to a certain extent by overtraining. I've never trained in Thailand, so I can't give a first hand opinion, but from the descriptions I've seen of their training regimes, they do sound over the top.
I train "relatively" little because I also have a full time job, and even then I find it difficult to recover between training sessions.
Personally, I think that the art of training relies on getting the work/recovery balance correct. I know from my own experience how easy it is to push yourself too hard, and it's almost impossible to let go because you just don't believe that you can gain more from doing less, until you eventually try it and then you realise what you've been missing. It's important to understand how the body recovers from different types of exercise, how long it takes, and also to listen to your body when it's telling you to stop.

[S.Anucha]

ahhh! I undertsand what you mean... lol, you were made to exercise through the entire rest period between rounds?

I was usually told to do 20 push ups then rest the rest. But I think you could be right, a little more scientific ways to build fight fitness wouldnt harm.

give some more specifics please.

[S.Anucha]

sslinky

it is over the top to many. But its a professional training regime. This is not a hobby or a part time thing for these guys or anyguy who goes there to train. This is a profession. Its like when you work a 9-5 job.

I have met guys who litteraly live Thaiboxing from the moment they wake till they sleep. Thats mind boggling for the average Thaiboxing enthusiast.

You cant just jump into a workout they have you doing in Thailand without first being ready to do it, it takes many many months even years to get ready to train in a full timke professional regime. It is very hard work....

....just think of this, when you are at that level of training, when you take just a week off the price you oay is great, it takes very hard work to get to that level oif training and to stay there even greater a challenge.... thats why professional Thaiboxing titles, or any fight title for that matter doesnt come easy. its pure hard work. very very taxing, pain in your body means that you aint ready for the regime, take it easy and build up to the peak of your training. Well I think you already know what i mean butyeah I rest now and again... it helps heaps.

In thaiboxing PAIN is part of it, it should be called thai-pain-boxing.... it cannot be any less painful.

[Tim Mousel]

Great discussion!

I'm currently working as strength and conditioning coach for 2 time world boxing champ Reggie Johnson. He and I both realize you can become a world champion without utilizing the optimal training methods. When he won his first title he'll be the first to admit that he wasn't training as "smart" as he could have been. Just because someone is good doesn't mean they couldn't be better by making some adjustments to their routine.

Boxing is notorious for training in outdated training methods. Fortunately, there are more fighters realizing that just because something has been done one way for hundreds of years can be done differently today because of advances in technology and science.

I wrote this article back in 1990...I should update some of it when I get a chance. Here it is if you want to take a look:

http://www.defend.net/articles/thaibox.php

Tim

[Thai Bri]

Tim,

Sorry, havent got time to read the full article at the moment. But I will.

What do you think of stability/core exercises, like the use of fitballs, wobble boards etc?

[Tim Mousel]

I think stability balls, balance boards, etc... are great. In a periodized training program they are especially great in the first phase (Anatomical Adaptation). I would never base a year round training program on their use, but definitely in certain phases.

Tim

[Thai Bri]

Thanks for that. I'm just getting into them and am amazed at how difficult they make things.

[Nick1_S]

Thats a very good article Tim. Very informed and applied well to the sport of Thai Boxing. Would be good to see most trainers/instructors having knowlege in these areas.

So, do any Thai Boxers wear heart rate monitors when they train? Or use the pulse method for 10secs then x 6?

I am not really into getting the particant wired up for HR reading or ready for lactate probes (repeated jabs in the ear!) Perhaps this is taking it too far and should be left to help induviduals whose success is wholly based on pure fitness. This is fighting, with fitness being only one attribute. But a very important one for the top level guys. So having this knowledge and combining it with tried and tested methods is probably the way to go.

I have read about trainers making ppl exercise through rests although mine does not, thank god. Probably ingrained through the nature of the sport. You have to be hard to fight (true). Train hard (yes). Till it hurts (sometimes), then more! (not necessarily). You should not be able to walk out... (hmmm)

Truth is you have to train HARD in this sport, there is no getting away from that. There is no easy way or quick fix. Like S.Anucha states - it should be called thai-pain-boxing. But this hard work ethic combined with a little fitness knowledge could only help I believe.

So do your running for aerobic conditioning. But everyday? 3-4 times a week yes. Cant see the importance of any more general steady state running - which is what the Thais do day in day out. We are not training for the local 10K race. All this is doing is taxing the body and taking out reserves that we could put into the hard sessions later. Be specific, what are we trying to achieve?

Practise your skills lots, this can be done as much as you like. But I am also a firm believer in that there is an optimum point in where you dont really improve much more by carrying on. A lot of the neural stuff happens when we are NOT training, just like the fitness.

And when we train hard, train HARD but with good rest periods. So we can have quality training next round. There is so much research now that suggests quality not quantity. Of course, we still need the base running, weights and skills training to be able to carry out this high intensity work.

Also, variety is key. 3 x 2 mins rounds 3 times a week will get me fit fast. But I will plateu. This is the point where further training does not ellicit an increase in fitness. The body has adapted as well as it can. So shorten the rounds, up the intensity. It will get used to this too. Make them longer to confuse it again. Then mix it up. The body needs to be kept fresh. Not the same routine day in day out hard, hard, hard...

[William Eriepa]

YOu bring up some very good points Nick1_S!

However, I have encountered many coaches that seem to lack any form of understanding in terms of fitness training. Its basically, train hard and train harder all the time. If it hurts, do it and then do it some more.
Very true. It's amazing how many uneducated coaches there are, especially in schools.

The camp I stayed at seemed to do the same running twice a day, then the same skipping, pad work, etc. Day in day out, 6 days a week with Sunday off.
Nahh, I reckon 6 days a week training is just right, but running everyday does seem like overdoing it. But it all depends on what kind of physique you are working to, and more importantly the intensity of the runs.

Training in this way just exhausts me because I just become progressively more tired after each day. The body needs rest to recuperate!
Exactly, so rest .

Have seen stuff like doing exercises between rounds etc. The whole point of the rest period is to allow the heart rate to reduce and for lactic acid to be removed so that the next work session can be carried out hard again. Therefore in the rest, you should just walk, jump around or shadow box a little to keep things moving. By exercising in this period, you cannot train as hard in the next session, so you will not overload the body as much and not get as fit.
Lactic acid usually takes several hours to remove, or course this can vary depending on how much your have fatigued yourself. Light aerobics after intense workouts will help remove lactic acid more than doing nothing. I don't see why you would not be able to overload the body (70%+ of potential), because lack of recovery.

I should train for the 400m coz then the 100m sprint will be easy. Most certainly not.
The 100m sprint purely uses the anaerobic system. Kickboxing usually mixes both the anaerobic and aerobic systems. Of course, as your kinda said, cross training is the key.

[William Eriepa]

You bring up some very good points S.Anucha!

You are kicking that much that the kicking initself becomes like a dynamic stretch, if you know anything about dynamioc stretching then you'd know that after sometime doing dynamic stretches you do not need to stretch in order to kick. Thats the whole point of doing dynamic stretching, you aint goiung to ask your opponent "...erm, hang on a sec till I stretch me legs so I can kick you...", no you are going to want to be able to kick high, cold and at anytime of the day. The Thai have that perfected.
Well kicking is dynamic . Dynamic stretches should only be carried out when one is fresh and not tired. Do only the number of repetitions that you can do without diminishing your range of motion. More repetitions will only set the nervous memory of the muscles' length, for these less than best stretches. This can even harm the dynamic flexibility.
After reaching the maximal range of motion in a joint, you should not do many more repetitions of this movement in a given workout. Even if you can maintain your max range of motion over many reps, you will set an unnecessary solid memory of the range of these movements. You will then have to overcome these memories in order to improve further.
I agree one should be able to kick well and high witrhout warmup. But nonetheless, a warm body is better than a cold one, and the risk of injury is much less on a warm body.

If you fight 3X2 minutes or 5X3 minutes makes no difference, the training is the same because its fighting you will be doing.
I disagree. It's different in that you are becoming accustomed to more longer fights, and that your are increasing your aerobic system more than one who only fights 3x2 minutes and/or you are spreading and saving your energy across the longer 5x3minute fights.

What I sugest is that you lose the modern, track and feild athletic type training methods and chose more tried and tested fight training methods.
Why keep using outdated methods? Not that all old methods of training are obsolete, but there are alot of old training methods that are stupid. They may be tried, but bearly tested like more modern methods.

The reason why is to build your enudrance level for the fight, hoinestly, take my word for it, if you can do 5x7 minute rounds in training with exercise inbetween rounds and do it without much of a problem then when you do fight you will find it pretty easy, maybe not easy but a hell of a lot more endurable. Thats done for a reason. Everything is doen for a reason.
Yup, agreed. I guess its all about mix though. The worlds best endurance runner would not have the strength of the worlds best power lifter, the same thing vice versa. Yea, it's about mix .

[William Eriepa]

You bring up some very good points Nick1_S!

Speaking from my experience, there is no way I could do a 7min round as hard as I could do a 2min round.

So, when I come to fight, ive got all this aerobic fitness, which is good. But when I come to blast it out using my anerobic system (ADP/ATP,phospocreatine - up to 30secs bursts) Im totally blown coz ive not done this training. Now if you are mixing longer rounds and shorter ones in your training then you have it covered

Exactly!

The thais basically stumbled out of bed into their run.
They are conditioned athletes. But there is no doubt that there performance would be much higher if they did a proper warmup.

[William Eriepa]

You bring up some good points sslinky!

I think there is very much a no pain, no gain attitude.
Yup. Pain from muscular activity is a sign of overtraining.

I think that the art of training relies on getting the work/recovery balance correct
And nutrition