Shin Conditioning, Iron Palm, Bod-Mod, Boosheet

[sslinky]

Ok, well I must admit, I don't know the exact biological reason that this happens as I'm not a phisiologist. However, I know somebody who is a radiologist, and he spends a lot of his time using ultrasound and x-rays to study bones and tissue etc. From what he tells me, it's observable that people who train in particular sports show higher/lower bone densities that can be predicted by the type of sport they do.

I just did a quick search - you could try looking at something like: http://health.yahoo.com/health/centers/bone_health/912

"Higher Impact Speeds Bone Health - Every time you take a step, land on your feet, hit a tennis ball or kick a soccer ball, chemical messages rush to your legs and arms warning them to get ready for the next impact and stimulating your bones to increase their strength..."

I know it's not *proof* as such, as it's just another internet page, but this is how it works as far as I understand it. I'll ask the radiologist I know, and see what he says about it...

Here's another quote from a the British National Health Service website:

"5.1.1Exercise management for bone health

O1 Exercise therapy in the form of weight bearing aerobic training activity and or strength training activity is now recognised as a valid and important intervention in the management of bone health. It is thought that the mechanical stresses that are put through bone during exercise can affect bone density. Weight bearing activity stimulates bone remodelling. It has been hypothesised that bone hypertrophy occurs in response to microfractures at the level of the osteon. Microscopic damage occurs where the tendon attaches to the bone when the stress applied is in excess of the normal levels, e.g., during weight bearing physical activity (27)

There is evidence that high impact exercise has the greatest potential to affect bone density in pre-menopausal women ( 28 ) ( 29 )

High impact exercise is suitable for those who regularly exercise. A lower impact programme of exercise is also appropriate especially for those not used to exercise. To be effective all exercise programmes need to be progressive in terms of impact and intensity as fitness and strength levels improve. However it is essential that all programmes begin at a low level which is comfortable for the patient. The assessment will give the physiotherapist a reference point from which to start the exercise programme. Reference should be made to the ACSM ( 17 ) on progression of exercise programmes. However it is generally accepted that microfracture is needed for an osteogenic response. "

What do you think?

Correction: it is a popular belief - definitely not a fact.
I mean, everybody talks about it, nobody has yet provided medical or scientific proof.

And your assertions regarding swimmers and runners; again, show me the facts. I haven't found anything to support those ideas and, believe me, I've looked.

I'm not looking for an arguement, I'm looking for credible, non-anecdotal, proof that these techniques do or do not work. And I will gladly accept whatever can be reasonably proven true. "I'm ready to believe you!"

[TheDeadlySquid]

Another Condition

I think I have this going on my left shin right now.

"However, a large bruise may bleed a lot into the quadriceps muscle. This bleeding is called a hematoma. The hematoma may become calcified and form a hard lump in the quadriceps muscle. This lump is called osteomyositis ossificans and may cause stiffness or a bump in the muscle that may be very long lasting."

TheDeadlySquid

[osopardo]

Notice that the sources you're quoting mention high impact aerobics and weight-bearing exercises (disqualifying swimming but not running). High impact does not mean hitting or getting hit and weight-bearing means most exercises where joints and the supporting muscles and tendons are subjected to repeated sequences of stress (flexion and extension). Nothing there about beating directly on your bones to make them stronger.

Yes, I personally know an elderly lady who reversed the onset of osteoporosis by taking Tae Kwon Do. When I joined the class she was a red belt, preparing for her black belt test - had taken up TKD after retirement when she found the Tai Chi class had been cancelled. I was able to observe that she pushed herself strenuously in the warm-ups (stretching) and the line drills (aerobics), but did very light sparring. Did not hit or allowed others to hit with any measure of force. But her doctor attributed the strengthening of her bones to strenuous exercise (not to getting hit).

[sslinky]

I think the point is that if you put your bones under any kind of stress it causes them to grow more dense, in a similar way that your muscles grow in size if you stress them.
You can stress them lightly and get small gains, which may be more suitable for some people, such as those with weaker bones (like your friend), or you can stress them heavily with high load or high impact exercise, which would be more suitable for fitter people.
Aerobics puts the bones under stress due to the impact of the body with, say the floor for example, and stretching stresses the bones due to the forces applied by the muscles.
If you get hit on a bone, it puts the bone under stress because the bone resists breaking, therefore it will have a similar effect to say, kicking a football. Obviously there are limits where you may be causing yourself damage through bruising etc. In this case the bone will still strengthen, but you will also have caused significant damage to bone/tissue, which is probably undesirable as it will take some time to heal.
It's all just stress, but applied in different ways and at different intensities - and the bone will react in the same way. The more stress you apply, the more strength you will gain (assuming you don't break the bone), in a similar way to the effect of weight lifting on the muscles.

stress - force that produces strain on a physical body; "the intensity of stress is expressed in units of force divided by units of area"

I feel stressed now.

[Karate_is_cool]

i think conditioning your bones is important. you may question why people do it and say that it doesnt work. but the fact is that people do it and they have gotten results. both my instructors for karate and muay thai strengthen their shins. when i kick their shin it hurts like hell, but i know for a fact that it isnt phasing them. so what kind of proof is there that shin condtitioning isnt useful? plus no matter how hard you workout with no impact training, you are never going to get used to the pain of getting hit in the shins. as far as ive seen and heard, shin conditioning has done just that.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

Seems that a big part of MT lore is about rolling rods and bottles and other assorted paraphernalia on one's legs as part of the training. Also kicking trees is often mentioned. Supposedly, this makes one's legs tougher and thickens the shin bones.

no no and for the last time NO. Im sorry but I thought everyone over the age of twelve already knew this- in thailand, in more ancient times before they had pads, they would kick banana trees because they are soft. go outside and kick a pine tree or an oak tree if you like, but all you'll get is arthritis and stress fractures. rolling rods and bottles on your leg, hitting them with things, hitting bits of wood, is all BULLSH*T. shin conditioning isnt really a subject for most thai fighters because of the amount of padwork they do. which brings me to

But Bri, go a long way towards what? Developing skill or developing bones? Or deadening nerves? My problem is with the notion that you can "condition" your bones with impact training. I think bag work is good for developing skill, technique, muscle memory. But making bones stronger through impact training? I just don't buy it!

well thats good because no one is bloody well selling it. its a fact. or maybe all the thai fighters in the world are in some kind of reality warp?

[osopardo]

Ikken,
I think you and I are on the same page on this subject, but yeah, there's a bunch of people out there "selling it", which is why I started this thread. I know about banana trees (I got a few in my backyard and we only kick the ones that don't produce bananas) but whether it's bananas or oaks or hanging bags, there's this notion out there that the impact makes the bones stronger, which I don't believe. Maybe it's not real Thai boxers, maybe it's all the western wannabes.