1st westener to beat a thai?

[edlerkevin1]

https://books.google.com/books?id=cd...20edler&f=true

[edlerkevin1]

Hi Kevin,
Ok I got this from Vincent Giordano who was the only one to respond to me so far, see if you can get this to your dad and see if he can add to it or verify anything on there:

""""" I wrote this awhile back on another forum mostly in regards to Dale Kvalheim who I met and is really cool. The questions here would be to see if Raymond could verify the May 1970 fight because that would really put things into a different perspective than what was generally written and known. In regards to the 1970 fight if it is true, how did he win the fight? By decision or KO or? I have also asked my friend who is one of the foremost researchers on muay thai and muay thai fighters and records to see what he says but i havent heard back from him. But you can start here:


Dale Kvalheim fought mostly in the north and won a regional northeastern muay thai championship once. He stated he only fought in Bangkok three times and was ranked #10 at rajadamnern stadium( i believe his highest ranking at any bangkok stadium). Dale's muay thai record was 25 wins and 10 losses and he fought between the years of 1972-1975.

You have to also take into account Raymond Elder, an american, who was primarily known for his japanese bouts but he did fight in thailand as well. I cant corroborate the years since i thought it was more of 1971-1972 that elder was in thailand, but i could wrong and this more accurate. Either way, Elder fought in thailand as well during that period but Dale is better known and Elder virtually forgotten written about more in the japanese kickboxing circles though he definitely fought muay thai in thailand.


On November 5th, 1971, American Raymond Elder defeated Toshiya Furuya to become the first non-Oriental to win the Japanese Middleweight Kick-Boxing crown. The bout was at the Nippon Budokan in Tokyo in front of 9000 cheering spectators.

Elder was from Pasco, Washington. In March 1970, Elder was sent to Thailand to train at the Sri Sothorn Camp and in May 1970 fought at Rajadamnern Stadium. Elder fought 5th ranked middleweight Mahahchai Tacharom--Elder won the bout.

Returning to Japan the over confident Elder did poorly winning 5 and losing 3 until his next fight in Thailand. In November 1970 he returned to Thailand and met the no.1 ranked Thai middleweight Daenthai Ittichit who was the former Rajadamnern Stadium Middleweight Champion. Elder lost by decision. After that bout Elder had 15 straight bouts (winning them all - 12 of them by KO).

In April 1972 Elder defended his title against Abe Oka in Korakuen Hall. On the 13th of August 1972,Elder lost in his bid to win the Orient 'World Middleweight Kickboxing Title' against Thailand's Songket. Elder was KO'ed in the 4th by a series of high kicks to the back of the ear and the neck. According to newspaper sources, Elder was winning the fight up until the point of the KO. Elder blocked the strong Thai kicks for 2 rounds and then started punching dropping his hands like an international boxer and he paid the price.

Elder was known for being superior at using his left jab, having a good ability to block kicks and being proficient on the inside with the use of the knees. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Hey man sorry for going a wall on you haha. Let me know if you're still interested in knowing!

[george stando]

Tick: Its strange this hasnt come up that much over the years. I would assume people just accepted what was there and just repeated it without ever challenging or going back to look? I mean there were records, newspapers, photos and even footage of fights, its not the bygone bare knuckle days. I am hoping more comes out of this.

[the tick]

I remember vagualy some footage from the 1920's or something which was also posted on here a while back from some Brits. That at least states that Muay Thai was known to some for some time.

[george stando]

I heard now there were americans fighitng in thailand prior to both men. Though i still would like to know if raymonds info is correct because it would predate dales by a bit but i think both men are not the first for americans. I would like to know also like tick asked about other foreigners or firsts fighting in thailand in muay thai.

[george stando]

The tick: great question and something that needs to be looked into. If anyone can add to this please do!

[the tick]

So those where the first Americans. But where they the first westerners? The British and French have been in the region a lot longer. And the Dutch have had diplomatic relations with them for centuries before anyone.

[george stando]

Hey Kevin, did you ever get to speak to your father? Let us know

[george stando]

ttt for kevin

[george stando]

Hi Kevin,
Ok I got this from Vincent Giordano who was the only one to respond to me so far, see if you can get this to your dad and see if he can add to it or verify anything on there:

""""" I wrote this awhile back on another forum mostly in regards to Dale Kvalheim who I met and is really cool. The questions here would be to see if Raymond could verify the May 1970 fight because that would really put things into a different perspective than what was generally written and known. In regards to the 1970 fight if it is true, how did he win the fight? By decision or KO or? I have also asked my friend who is one of the foremost researchers on muay thai and muay thai fighters and records to see what he says but i havent heard back from him. But you can start here:


Dale Kvalheim fought mostly in the north and won a regional northeastern muay thai championship once. He stated he only fought in Bangkok three times and was ranked #10 at rajadamnern stadium( i believe his highest ranking at any bangkok stadium). Dale's muay thai record was 25 wins and 10 losses and he fought between the years of 1972-1975.

You have to also take into account Raymond Elder, an american, who was primarily known for his japanese bouts but he did fight in thailand as well. I cant corroborate the years since i thought it was more of 1971-1972 that elder was in thailand, but i could wrong and this more accurate. Either way, Elder fought in thailand as well during that period but Dale is better known and Elder virtually forgotten written about more in the japanese kickboxing circles though he definitely fought muay thai in thailand.


On November 5th, 1971, American Raymond Elder defeated Toshiya Furuya to become the first non-Oriental to win the Japanese Middleweight Kick-Boxing crown. The bout was at the Nippon Budokan in Tokyo in front of 9000 cheering spectators.

Elder was from Pasco, Washington. In March 1970, Elder was sent to Thailand to train at the Sri Sothorn Camp and in May 1970 fought at Rajadamnern Stadium. Elder fought 5th ranked middleweight Mahahchai Tacharom--Elder won the bout.

Returning to Japan the over confident Elder did poorly winning 5 and losing 3 until his next fight in Thailand. In November 1970 he returned to Thailand and met the no.1 ranked Thai middleweight Daenthai Ittichit who was the former Rajadamnern Stadium Middleweight Champion. Elder lost by decision. After that bout Elder had 15 straight bouts (winning them all - 12 of them by KO).

In April 1972 Elder defended his title against Abe Oka in Korakuen Hall. On the 13th of August 1972,Elder lost in his bid to win the Orient 'World Middleweight Kickboxing Title' against Thailand's Songket. Elder was KO'ed in the 4th by a series of high kicks to the back of the ear and the neck. According to newspaper sources, Elder was winning the fight up until the point of the KO. Elder blocked the strong Thai kicks for 2 rounds and then started punching dropping his hands like an international boxer and he paid the price.

Elder was known for being superior at using his left jab, having a good ability to block kicks and being proficient on the inside with the use of the knees. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

[kevinedler]

okay I'll be back to check i'll try to get him to answer the questions

[george stando]

Thanks, Kevin, Welcome to the forum. Your father was an important figure in early muay thai because he along with Dale showed a foreigner could fight with the best of them and earn their respect. I asked one of my teachers who has some info to send it so maybe your dad can verify it and we can get a clearer picture of everything. In japan, I know your father was a sensation, one of the first kickboxing champs.

Please check back in a day or two to see if I can come up with some stuff to read back to your dad to see if he can shed some light on his career. You should be very proud of your dad!

If anyone comes up with footage please post it or share a link or source.

[kevinedler]

Nope, he started working for the USA Foreign Service, for over 20 years he retired on July we've moved from Indonesia>Ghana>Bangladesh> and last to Philippines. Right now we've settled in Washington where I'm going to a new school. Feel free to ask me more questions he doesn't do anything much related to fighting anymore but lift weights and watch fights.

When i go to my uncle's house i get to see his trophies and pictures.
He basically teaches me self defense sometimes and i love to fight but never get the chance he just wants me to go to college and get a good job. Im in the 10th grade right now

haha thanks sometimes he brags about fighting but i want to watch an actual tape of him fighting :P

[fire cobra]

my dad is "Ray 'Machine Gun' Edler" lol haha finally found something on him

Nice one Kevin,welcome to the forum.

I remember your dads name being mentioned in Magazines etc when I first started Muay Thai in1982,pretty famous gentleman eh!.

[george stando]

Kevin,
Your dad was a huge a sensation in japan as well. He was one of the first to fight in thailand along with dale. What he is doing these days? Does he still teach?