Military Coup in Thailand

[cowpaste]

Sorry to jump in so suddenly, but I want to present another point of view.

I am no 100% supporter of Thaksin, but I am a firm believer that he has achieved more good than harm. He is just as "corrupt" as any past of Thailand's PMs, but he is unique in that he has brought revolutionary change and progress to the country. It's just that this time the newspapers are heavily biased.

The real villian here is Sonthi. That idiot is the one who is truly corrupted. The coup is a serious blow to democracy, and if the king truly supports it, then I am deeply saddened. Most of the "educated" class in Bangkok really hate Thaksin, but there are a handful of people who really know what's going on. I urge all Thais to avoid reading the "mainstream" newspapers. I wish I could provide more information, but I most of things I know come from a relative, whose friend used to work in a position where Sonthi's dealings could be seen.

[Tee Sok]

Interesting point of view, thanks for sharing. I am aware of the great corruption among Thai officials, but I am also aware that the King has always worked for His peole rather than against them, so that makes me think it was a right decision.
It is a fact that Thaksin bought many of his votes, especially in the northern rural areas, where the poor were grateful for his monetary offers (of course).

The coup can be seen as a serious blow to democracy as you said, but what Thaksin has been doing is just the same-in a hidden, less direct way.
All the people I know there don't like Thaksin. I don't either, also because our ex-prime minister (Berlusconi) is kinda like him.

I just hope things won't escalate to violence and that the King has done the right choice. Time will tell I guess.

[cowpaste]

Keep in mind that the same army people very recently tried to assassinate Thaksin. This is how they make up for it? With a military coup? It just doesn't look very honorable or dignified.
Thaksin's party is still very popular despite the fact that a lot of Bangkok residents hate him. It was well known that Thaksin's enemies would have a hard time winning in a fully democratic election. I don't know if Thaksin actually directly bought votes, but I know a big part of his political agenda involved helping poorer people. Think about the various programs he has established, such as the "cure all diseases for 30 baht" program. That is why he is popular with the rural areas. I don't think he actually went out and gave people money so they would vote for him. I've been told stories about how strongly some "poorer" citizens support Thaksin. A couple of my friends told me about how they insulted Thaksin while sitting in a taxi cab. One driver completely slammed on the brakes the moment he heard the comment. Another driver stopped the car and asked the passengers to just leave without paying.
I very much believe Thaksin has done some shady things as a PM, but seriously....if he is *that* bad, why hasn't he been tried in a court of law? Most of the newspapers don't have any proof. They write what they write because they are given gifts (free hotel rooms, free airplane tickets) in exchange for damaging stories against Thaksin. Of course the general "educated" populace does not like Thaksin if their only information source is the newspapers.

I agree with you though: I really don't want this thing to end in violence. That is why I am so against the coup.

[Tee Sok]

Yes, you can never fully trust a newspaper. If you can't find the truth by yourself you have to hear all the voices and make your own point.

I heard about the 'cure all diseases for 30 bath' but I didn't know it was the PM's idea. That's a good point for him. Thaksin has supporters and haters, like any other man in a position of power. Some support him, some despise him. In my stays in Thailand I talked only to Thaksin 'haters' so I am a little biased in that way.
In my opinion, Thailand is the land of contradictions. Or the land where you can see them more clearly. But the one thing that struck me about this country is the love all the people have for their King. It's just everywhere. I haven't seen or heard such a thing in any other country that has a monarch.

Latest news said the King approved the coup, let's just hope that was the right decision, and that all goes well.

[OctaviousBP]

I have to agree with many of cowpaste's points... thus my dividedness on the issue.

Certainly Taksin is no saint, and in the end, I am happy to see him go. However, there are a few things that people may not know. The first is definitely the fledgling healthcare system he implemented, as cowpaste pointed out. The second is a million baht hedge-fund to villages across the country (which he actually followed up on for the most part). Thirdly, he implemented many scholarships for poor students as well. Some may consider these actions buying votes, but to many poor people, it is a real life, tangible boon that had not been administered by the head of state for many years. Under Taksin, the poorer classes in Thailand actually felt relevant.

Unfortunately, many of the ideas that Taksin campaigned on and many of the promises he made as prime minister proved to be simply hot air. In the end, Taksin is a tycoon populist that even had his mentor Chamlong turn his back on hiim.

That being said, Sondhi and the PAD aren't any better in my opinion. Sondhi is a tycoon himself, a media tycoon nonetheless, and owns a good chunk of communications here in Thailand. While Taksin might have "bought votes", Sondhi has been using a more hegemonic approach to his popularity. He is favoured by urbanites and the BKK elite. So we here that the coup is peaceful here, and that the people want the change... if that was true, why not just wait until the election next month? But the media reports all smiles in the metropole of BKK, which is certainly the case. But what about the more than fifty percent of the population that re-elected Taksin less then 6 months ago? They are the poor that don't get much media attention.

So the democratic process is hurt in the end. The message is, if you don't think you can win the election next month... no problem, throw a coup. As long as you have the elites on your side, you can pull it off.

Time will tell if when "democracy" is reinstalled here, it's basic tenents will be adhered to. There is talk of reinstituting the constitution which was recinded yesterday, with some changes. I think the best solution is an election as soon as possible, with a succesful candidate who acknowledges that Thailand extends beyond the Chao Phraya valley, and governs with the best interest of both the urban elites and those in the countryside. We will have to see...

[cowpaste]

Didn't Thaksin also get rid of some horrible debt that Thailand was in? My information on this is a little unclear. I'm not that good at reading Thai, so most of my information about politics comes from other people.

Anyway, I'm actually a little surprised that the King supports the coup. I was told that some politicians had previously asked the King to ask Thaksin to step down as PM to be replaced with a new PM of the King's own choosing. Supposedly the King refused claiming it was undemocratic. Is this true? If so, it certainly contradicts the fact that he supports the coup!

[sportmuaythai]

Sorry to jump in so suddenly, but I want to present another point of view.

Most of the "educated" class in Bangkok really hate Thaksin, but there are a handful of people who really know what's going on. I urge all Thais to avoid reading the "mainstream" newspapers. I wish I could provide more information, but I most of things I know come from a relative, whose friend used to work in a position where Sonthi's dealings could be seen.

Cowpaste, your post is an insult to the intellegence of Thai People. How many is a handful in your statement? While Sondhi ( not to be confused with Gen.Sonthi of CDR, same name in Thai) was active in trying to oust Thaksin, most Thais aren't behind him. Please don't bring up Sondhi to give a whitewash for Thaksin. Thaksin talked about democracy and laws, but thru his crookedness, he actually destroyed what is true democratic system. Votes buying was prevailant, and all active members of the election commitee were recently sentenced to jail on two cases for not being transparant and in being inactive in persecuting Thaksin's party for election manipulation.. More are pending.
OctvapiousBP, pls don't talk about the medical health care that Thaksin implemented. Most doctors were against it, because it wouldn't work. With the budget now just about exhausted, many hospitals are in severe debts to drug companies and they can no longer get credit fo medicines. Doctors have to work way over time since there are insufficient doctors to go around, so a patient only gets may be five minutes of doctor's attention. The usual prescription is paracetamol to kill the pain. As for one million hedge funds, the village commitees weren't trained for this kind of responsibility, and there were frequent corruptions. The government said that this project help poor farmers, yet the mininstry of agriculture and co-ops is seized times and again by farmers in debt.
Thaksin is a very smart man. Too bad he used his talent to rob his country.
I could go on and on why Thaksin had to go. But that is boring.

So the democratic process is hurt in the end. The message is, if you don't think you can win the election next month... no problem, throw a coup. As long as you have the elites on your side, you can pull it off.
Time will tell if when "democracy" is reinstalled here, it's basic tenents will be adhered to. There is talk of reinstituting the constitution which was recinded yesterday, with some changes. I think the best solution is an election as soon as possible, with a succesful candidate who acknowledges that Thailand extends beyond the Chao Phraya valley, and governs with the best interest of both the urban elites and those in the countryside. We will have to see...

OctaviousBP, you're insulting your own intellegence.
Each country has unique limitations, and Thailand is no exception.
ฺBTW I like Tee Sok's posts. Thank you.

[sportmuaythai]

Didn't Thaksin also get rid of some horrible debt that Thailand was in? My information on this is a little unclear. I'm not that good at reading Thai, so most of my information about politics comes from other people.

Anyway, I'm actually a little surprised that the King supports the coup. I was told that some politicians had previously asked the King to ask Thaksin to step down as PM to be replaced with a new PM of the King's own choosing. Supposedly the King refused claiming it was undemocratic. Is this true? If so, it certainly contradicts the fact that he supports the coup!

The IMF debts were repaid during Thaksin's administration. I consider that one of his achievements.
No! the king did not support the coup. He did sign the proclaimation that General Sonthi is now head of the ruling body. This is to ensure that there is law and order which will pave way for return to normalcy, leading to new constitution and election. The king always adhere to constitution and laws. Also he stays above politics, except some times he will give advice on how to solve national crisis.
I consider this coup as a necessity, similar to an operation. It hurts and takes time to recover, but necessary treatment for a cure.

[Little Apple]

Hmmm, well in my very humble opinion, there is no controdiction of ethics here. (the situation in Thailand, heh, not your conversation)

I read in the NY Times today that basicly the coup was to reset the checks and balances in Thailand's constitution that they felt the PM was ignoring. That there were no report of injury, and that the military didn't plan on keeping the country. To me it sounds like they are acting for the good of their country. They are sort of pushing the "reset" button on the parts of their constitution that aren't being followed. I don't think that's ignoring democracy, I think that's saving it. I also think that's exactly what our founding fathers did. Think about it.

Pardon my veiws, but truely: I don't see how any American worth their rights can look down on that. Was it Franklin who said a country needs revolution every 50 years to stay healthy?
{edit: OK, wrote this before sportmuaythai's post went up, heh, didn't mean to copy-cat }

[Tee Sok]

[QUOTE=sportmuaythai;238213]
He did sign the proclaimation that General Sonthi is now head of the ruling body. This is to ensure that there is law and order which will pave way for return to normalcy, leading to new constitution and election. The king always adhere to constitution and laws. Also he stays above politics, except some times he will give advice on how to solve national crisis.

Your pointing out this about the King is very welcome, as foreign newspapers just say that He supported the coup. He did what I was thinking about, just take one side to calm the situation and avoid complications.

"Also he stays above politics, except some times he will give advice on how to solve national crisis."

I remember His speech earlier this year, during His birthday celebrations. His speech was full of advises to improve the situation in Thailand- I remember his speech about floodings in the north.
I liked the part hen He told Thaksin not to spend so much time on tv because the Thais want to watch soaps!!!!

[Tee Sok]

Pardon my veiws, but truely: I don't see how any American worth their rights can look down on that. Was it Franklin who said a country needs revolution every 50 years to stay healthy?
{edit: OK, wrote this before sportmuaythai's post went up, heh, didn't mean to copy-cat }

I understand your point Little Apple, in Europe and USA it sure looks like it is all against democracy. After all, we are talking about tanks on the streets!
But I rather see it as something needed to improve the situation of the country. In these cases violence can rise easily, this is also why the King signed that proclamation. You just have to look at what is happening in Hungary after a PM's lie had been made public.

[sportmuaythai]

In the Thai case it is admirable.

But people willing to die for their Emperor was a bit of a problem for us circa 1941-1945.

Ouch! that little snip. Like Cambodia of old, the Emperor was a reincarnation of god. King Bhumiphol, on the other hand however, won Thais' heart for his unrelenting selfless hard work for his people and his country.

[OctaviousBP]

No worries about insulting my own intelligence sportmuaythai... I'm fairly confident about my comments as my own point of view.

I understand that this is an issue that is very close to your heart, and as an expat living here, I have a different viewpoint than many locals. I also have a different perspective on the political economy of Thailand, as I earned my masters degree based on research regarding Thailand. So admittedly, I have a bit of an academic approach to my observations which may sometimes skew my perception.

The fact of the matter is, as I'm sure you know, this coup does not happen in a vacuum. By that, I mean it has a global effect, and happens within the context of the world order. When BBC and CNN were reporting images of tanks and armed soldiers parading in the streets of BKK and CNX, this is what people remember. Thailand has struggled with democracy. I believe there have been 18 coups since 1932? All of these incidents were complex and involved many variables... but nowadays, with the media everywhere, the complexity of the situation falls by the wayside, as people only see the headlines "Thailand" and "Military Coup". In February of 2005, Thaksin won the most amount of seats in Thai history, with the largest number of voter turnout. Boy, that must have been some good vote buying? Anyways, I'm not going to argue about corruption in Thai politics, but lets just say there are likely many politicians (as in the rest of the world: see Canada's ad scam for reference) who live in glass houses...

As far as the healthcare is concerned, I will talk about it, because as a Canadian, that is something that is near and dear to MY heart. While the healthcare system in Thailand doesn't compare to that in Canada, it is something, and potentially the start of something great. It is an acknowledgement that EVERYONE is entitled to at least some sort of minimum standard of healthcare, however small, as is the case with Thailand. You know what? Those five minutes with a well trained doctor are five more than the Cambodian children begging at the Poipet border will ever get. What I am getting at, is that the healthcare system in Thailand may be a joke to people living in BKK with a bit of cash, but to some people living on the periphery, it is a windfall. I agree that the hedgefund wasn't necessarily managed well, as there wasn't ample focus on capacity building, but in the end, who am I to criticize how they spent their money. The bottom line is, many villagers did feel a tangible impact from the fund, and therefore felt significant and not forgotten by BKK.

But don't get me wrong, as I mentioned in my last post, Thaksin blew it, and deserved to go. You are right when you say that the negative he has done now outweighs any positives (if any in your opinion). I just don't like the way the opposition went about. Since this coup doesn't happen in a bubble, there is at least a noticeable collapse in confidence in the perception of Thailand in the global community... this is why the baht hit its largest one day loss in three years. The problem that is arising, if you noticed in BKK, many foreigners have the opinion "another coup in Thailand... no big deal... they happen every five years right?" Well, no they don't, as I mentioned before, there are several complex reasons for each one... but most people don't care to think about the reasons, they just associate Thailand with military and coups.

Anyways, this turned into a bit more of a rant then I intended, and it is only MY opinion, the opinion of a foreigner living in Thailand. If my opinion is offensive to you (as incidentally I know it is to many of my native contemporaries around here in CNX) I apologize... it is after all my first first-hand coup.

[cowpaste]

I must admit, I got the two Sonthi's mixed up. I learned most of what I know about the situation just last month, and so I get confused sometimes.

I'm glad the king didn't support the coup. The foreign newspapers weren't exactly accurate it seems, but I don't really have any other source of information.

sportmuaythai, as for our disagreements, it is only normal. Thaksin's haters think his supporters are stupid, and vice versa.

So I'll ask here because I've gotten more "information" from those pesky newspapers. I read that there is a buttload of censorship going around. If true, why is this necessary? It all makes Thailand look EXTREMELY bad right now. It has sank down into "just another third world country" - general opinion of a lot of people I have talked to in the states!

[sportmuaythai]

No worries about insulting my own intelligence sportmuaythai... I'm fairly confident about my comments as my own point of view.

I understand that this is an issue that is very close to your heart, and as an expat living here, I have a different viewpoint than many locals. I also have a different perspective on the political economy of Thailand, as I earned my masters degree based on research regarding Thailand. So admittedly, I have a bit of an academic approach to my observations which may sometimes skew my perception.

The fact of the matter is, as I'm sure you know, this coup does not happen in a vacuum. By that, I mean it has a global effect, and happens within the context of the world order. When BBC and CNN were reporting images of tanks and armed soldiers parading in the streets of BKK and CNX, this is what people remember.

Too bad this board doesn't allow picture posting. There are tons of pictures on the internet of Thai people giving food and flowers to the soldiers. Eventually, the medias will report on this. When you have a modern coup, you obviously see tanks etc. But when you see people giving food and flowers to soldiers, then you must realize that the people really want Thaksin to be taken off his post. Wouldn't you think that the western people will remember more of this unique scene?

In February of 2005, Thaksin won the most amount of seats in Thai history, with the largest number of voter turnout. Boy, that must have been some good vote buying? Anyways, I'm not going to argue about corruption in Thai politics, but lets just say there are likely many politicians (as in the rest of the world: see Canada's ad scam for reference) who live in glass houses...

Thaksin did a good job as compared to the previous Democratic Party government. So when he won his second term, he claimed that he had people support. This landslide victory doesn't exclude him from being liable for his misdeeds. When the parliament became totally dictatorial by Thaksin's party, people began to take matters to the street to expose his corrupt practices. Instead of answering to these charges, he dissolved the parliament. Thaksin lost his legitimacy right there. Only a couple of days earlier, he publicly said that he could not and would not dissolve the parliament since the house was at recess. Thaksin said that he would let the public decide if he should remain as priminister through election. What a farce and contortion. Thaksin was expected to answer charges against him, but instead he dissolved the parliament and ask people to vote for him again.
Why did all opposition parties boycott this election? Why was the election commitee taken to court and sentenced to jail? Would you call the election process democratic when only Thaksin's party was the real candidate? Please kindly answer these questions and confirm that the April2nd election was a democratic process.

As far as the healthcare is concerned, I will talk about it, because as a Canadian, that is something that is near and dear to MY heart. While the healthcare system in Thailand doesn't compare to that in Canada, it is something, and potentially the start of something great. It is an acknowledgement that EVERYONE is entitled to at least some sort of minimum standard of healthcare, however small, as is the case with Thailand. You know what? Those five minutes with a well trained doctor are five more than the Cambodian children begging at the Poipet border will ever get. What I am getting at, is that the healthcare system in Thailand may be a joke to people living in BKK with a bit of cash, but to some people living on the periphery, it is a windfall. I agree that the hedgefund wasn't necessarily managed well, as there wasn't ample focus on capacity building, but in the end, who am I to criticize how they spent their money. The bottom line is, many villagers did feel a tangible impact from the fund, and therefore felt significant and not forgotten by BKK.

Please kindly answer how you conduct your research to arrive at above conclusion. I talked to several villagers myself, and to many muaythai trainers who come from north east, and they are disillusioned by the 30 bahts health care. This is where I got the information that paracetamol is the normal prescription, after a whole day wait for medical examination, consisisting of temp taking, throat inspection and a look at their eyes. These is standard routine done by doctors who claim that they don't have sufficient time to examine patients medically, considering the long que of patients. I have traveled thru Cambodia from Loas border to Siemriep down to Pnompenh and Kampongsom and Thai border. I didn't see the Cambodian government making false promise on health care either. I also see many taxi drivers now complaining that the program initiated by Thaksin to convert their cars into NGV fuel left them in debts since the government didn't subsidize their expenses as promised.

But don't get me wrong, as I mentioned in my last post, Thaksin blew it, and deserved to go. You are right when you say that the negative he has done now outweighs any positives (if any in your opinion). I just don't like the way the opposition went about. Since this coup doesn't happen in a bubble, there is at least a noticeable collapse in confidence in the perception of Thailand in the global community... this is why the baht hit its largest one day loss in three years. The problem that is arising, if you noticed in BKK, many foreigners have the opinion "another coup in Thailand... no big deal... they happen every five years right?" Well, no they don't, as I mentioned before, there are several complex reasons for each one... but most people don't care to think about the reasons, they just associate Thailand with military and coups.

The king has taught Thais to be sufficient and content. Did you know that Bhutan is regarded as one of the best countries where its people are happy? I see more rise in suicides per capita and more babies abandoned or aborted while Thailand was being pushed into globilization by Thaksin administration.

Anyways, this turned into a bit more of a rant then I intended, and it is only MY opinion, the opinion of a foreigner living in Thailand. If my opinion is offensive to you (as incidentally I know it is to many of my native contemporaries around here in CNX) I apologize... it is after all my first first-hand coup.

You need not apologize. Your post is not offending to me or Thais. In fact it gives me opportunity to clear matters up for the members of this board. BTW have you trained at ChaiYai camp yet? You can train there paying per session. Then you can report on it compared to Lanna camp which seem to receive rave reviews. Incidentally, my son graduated from ChiangMai University eleven years ago.