Muay Boran, ancient muay thai art still effective?

[Tee Sok]

There still are teachers and students of traditional Thai fighting arts.
I wouldn't call that "boran" but muay Korat, Lanna, Chaiya.....

[fire cobra]

I cant see a problem with using the term "Boran",
thai people use the term for things ancient such as Muang Boran-ancient city,nuat phen boran-ancient massage etc,
so though i can understand the teachers of ancient Muay styles calling their particular method Muay Chaiya,korat,lopburi etc thai people who were not practicioners of the various styles would call them Muay Boran(at least my thai friends all do)

[Tee Sok]

Yes I understand boran is an adjective that means ancient, so
some people will generalise Muay Boran meaning "ancient way of fighting",
without going into details, just like when you say kung fu.

Some people here in the west call muay boran what they say is THE ancient
way of fighting and sel it that way. That was what I was meaning.

[fire cobra]

Ahh now i understand your meaning TeeSok.

[Argos3030]

Muay Bora vs Muay Thai

Okay all of you need to understand something no matter what the art is they are lethal no matter what. When you have trained in sport Martial Arts you loose an edge and that has been proven many times. Sure the MT may land a lot of kicks and punches all it takes is one MB hit and proper technique and is over.

I have defeated MT practioners with Karate and Aikijiujitsu yes they connected but they lacked something and that is the combat and warriors edge that comes from having faced a very intent and hostile opponent bent in killing you. So to say one is better than the other shows a great lack of maturity and respect for Martial Arts. You would ask how I did it? Very easy by breaking the rythm of combat to comform to mine and provoking the desired outcome in my opponent he was griveously hurt and out of commission for almost a year.

The warriors edge, knowledge, and strategy will always overcome brute force. "All War is Based on Deception" Sun Tzu. So why not begin by obtaining the right mindset and then chat in here with respect. And by the way I practice MB and train and condition everydaby before going to work and having a family life. So if you think that all you have to do is dedicate to it do it but remember there is life as well and you must have a balance.

[the tick]

Okay all of you need to understand something no matter what the art is they are lethal no matter what. When you have trained in sport Martial Arts you loose an edge and that has been proven many times. Sure the MT may land a lot of kicks and punches all it takes is one MB hit and proper technique and is over.

I have defeated MT practioners with Karate and Aikijiujitsu yes they connected but they lacked something and that is the combat and warriors edge that comes from having faced a very intent and hostile opponent bent in killing you. So to say one is better than the other shows a great lack of maturity and respect for Martial Arts. You would ask how I did it? Very easy by breaking the rythm of combat to comform to mine and provoking the desired outcome in my opponent he was griveously hurt and out of commission for almost a year.

The warriors edge, knowledge, and strategy will always overcome brute force. "All War is Based on Deception" Sun Tzu. So why not begin by obtaining the right mindset and then chat in here with respect. And by the way I practice MB and train and condition everydaby before going to work and having a family life. So if you think that all you have to do is dedicate to it do it but remember there is life as well and you must have a balance.

Yeah......LOL!!! The LOL starts with the highlighted part and goes on till the end.

[fire cobra]

Yeah......LOL!!! The LOL starts with the highlighted part and goes on till the end.

Yeah I agree tick lol..

[Sieh Tanonchai]

Okay all of you need to understand something no matter what the art is they are lethal no matter what. When you have trained in sport Martial Arts you loose an edge and that has been proven many times. Sure the MT may land a lot of kicks and punches all it takes is one MB hit and proper technique and is over.

I have defeated MT practioners with Karate and Aikijiujitsu yes they connected but they lacked something and that is the combat and warriors edge that comes from having faced a very intent and hostile opponent bent in killing you. So to say one is better than the other shows a great lack of maturity and respect for Martial Arts. You would ask how I did it? Very easy by breaking the rythm of combat to comform to mine and provoking the desired outcome in my opponent he was griveously hurt and out of commission for almost a year.

The warriors edge, knowledge, and strategy will always overcome brute force. "All War is Based on Deception" Sun Tzu. So why not begin by obtaining the right mindset and then chat in here with respect.

I think you are right somehow, but you are a little to excited about "1 technique is all it needs".
You are right, everybody respect all other arts, even if you won against one of them. One fight does not say much, isnt it?

Of course would be one technique enough, but not only for a MB fighter. It would be fine for any MT fighter as well. And that's the point about fighting: Can you bring at the right moment the proper technique? Isn't this about all fights?
Sure many sport-MT fighters are far away from being realistic, they probably think if they know some nice techniques it's enough for anybody. Well, until you prove them it isn't enough they won't believe, unfortunately. But really good guys would not fight in the ring, I experienced, fighters in need for money or glory etc fight in rings.
It would be hard to believe for me if there is still anybody who is convinced every year is somebody else the "best fighter of the world" or this sport people are the "best" you can fight. If you are 17 (years old), ok, but 20 and over, no way.

tick and cobra,
I am not sure if your comments are related to the complete thread of Argos3030,
but you better believe there are guys out there who can finish a confrontation pretty fast, you know that.

Sieh

[fire cobra]

I think you are right somehow, but you are a little to excited about "1 technique is all it needs".
You are right, everybody respect all other arts, even if you won against one of them. One fight does not say much, isnt it?

Of course would be one technique enough, but not only for a MB fighter. It would be fine for any MT fighter as well. And that's the point about fighting: Can you bring at the right moment the proper technique? Isn't this about all fights?
Sure many sport-MT fighters are far away from being realistic, they probably think if they know some nice techniques it's enough for anybody. Well, until you prove them it isn't enough they won't believe, unfortunately. But really good guys would not fight in the ring, I experienced, fighters in need for money or glory etc fight in rings.
It would be hard to believe for me if there is still anybody who is convinced every year is somebody else the "best fighter of the world" or this sport people are the "best" you can fight. If you are 17 (years old), ok, but 20 and over, no way.

tick and cobra,
I am not sure if your comments are related to the complete thread of Argos3030,
but you better believe there are guys out there who can finish a confrontation pretty fast, you know that.

Sieh

Sieh Tanonchai,

My comments were in relation to the post from Argos3030.

In relation to Muay Boran or the older styles such as Muay Chaiya /Lopburi etc I really like what I have seen of them and belive the training methods and the technique to be top class.

However in relation to your comment "but really good guys would not fight in the ring" I cant quite grasp that one,
how do you know that they are really good if they dont fight in the ring?(or do they fight elsewhere?).

To elaborate on what I mean,
I myself can look great on the bag and the pad and shadow boxing and sparring and doing techniques I could look like a world champ! but when I got in the ring I didnt look half as good as that!.

So I fail to understand how some one who doesnt test himself against opponents as good as himself can be considered really good,good at what? looking good? or fighting? if the latter then surely you have to fight to be good at that? or am I missing something brother? I an open to learn and change my opinion if helped to see what I may of missed.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Clubber Lang]

many sport-MT fighters are far away from being realistic.

In what respect are they "far away from being realistic"? They fight in what is widely acknowledged to be the toughest ring art in the world, and sadly there are many documented deaths that have taken place in the Muay Thai ring. So many martial arts go on about their art being lethal, Muay Thai has inadvertedly proved the point on many occassions. In what way is that "far away from realistic"?

What are you using as a reference point for "realistic"? Traditional martial arts? How many guys have died in the Karate Dojo, or the Kung Fu Kwoon, or how many of the "real guys" in the self-protection clubs have dropped down dead in their cammo pants?

Martial arts has a very interesting definition of reality.

Well, until you prove them it isn't enough they won't believe, unfortunately

I see. You've proven to Muay Thai fighters that what they are doing isn't enough? Please share. How many Muay Thai fighters have you proven this to? How did that work out for you? What were doing that wasn't enough, and what did you do that proved so deadly? I'm all ears.

But really good guys would not fight in the ring

You mean you would not fight in the ring.

[the tick]

And people wonder why I mock Pahuyuthi's and, to an extend, MB'ers.

[george stando]

Whats a pahuyuthi? Is that guys who train with sunthus? Never heard that one before

[Tee Sok]

I guess it's them.

Whats a pahuyuthi? Is that guys who train with sunthus? Never heard that one before

[the tick]

Whats a pahuyuthi? Is that guys who train with sunthus? Never heard that one before

A Pahuyuthi is someone who does Phuyuth. Dunno if there are more then Sunthus. But yeah.

[Sieh Tanonchai]

My comments were in relation to the post from Argos3030.

ok, this makes me understanding the situation.

In relation to Muay Boran or the older styles such as Muay Chaiya /Lopburi etc I really like what I have seen of them and belive the training methods and the technique to be top class.

Well, I think it is nice, really. But some of these MB techniques seem to be far from reality. Some techniques look like you could not use them to defend a country. Some look they are made for shows and with no efficiency. But who am I to judge, so I won't.
But fine, I accept every kind of opinion.

However in relation to your comment "but really good guys would not fight in the ring" I cant quite grasp that one,
how do you know that they are really good if they dont fight in the ring?(or do they fight elsewhere?).

I can not believe these words came out of you, fire cobra. It seems to be you are an experienced guy?
Let me answer with this one: Mike Tyson was/is a really good puncher, isn't he? He had no good technique, but he destroyed whatever entered the ring. As he could not fight, he was suspended I think and he was in jail. At this time others became champion. Accordingly to "the champ is the best" this champ would be better than anyone else, also better than Tyson. But I doubt it. The other one just became champion because Tyson was not allowed to fight.
Why I wrote this, what everybody agrees anyway? Because there are many more things important to become a champion, a small part are the fighting skills.
How do I know if they are good if they don't go in a ring? First of all, everybody better knows for himself if he is 'good' (but many don't, I know about).
Sometimes you have the chance to see people fight somewhere, so you know what's up.
Sometimes you can fight somebody who is really good. This does not need to be in a ring, no reason for. I know more than one who could smash me no matter how hard I can effort to train. A ring is for sports and people who like to fight for sports and/or money, nothing else.
Many trainer, my teacher, friends of mine, myself, etc would not go into a ring without a good reason.
I am pretty sure some of the non-ring-fighters do not let a good chance pass by (as long as both parties wanna go for it).

To elaborate on what I mean,
I myself can look great on the bag and the pad and shadow boxing and sparring and doing techniques I could look like a world champ! but when I got in the ring I didnt look half as good as that!.

I know what you are talking about.

So I fail to understand how some one who doesnt test himself against opponents as good as himself can be considered really good,good at what?

It's not that you are not tested, no. You just have shorter ways, no need to go for a ring. If you want to see how good you are you just ask a more experienced fighter in the school for a "complete experience", there is usually always somebody around who loves to be invited. This is possibly not exactly as it is supposed to be, but students asking for "more knowledge" can be helped this way. And I am not a teacher and I will never be (unfortunately).
My example: I usually train once in a while in sport clubs. For practicing reasons. If I go more than once to the same club the coaches know me, I go as hard as my partner goes only. So I experienced how competition fighters can get "emotional".

looking good? or fighting? if the latter then surely you have to fight to be good at that? or am I missing something brother? I an open to learn and change my opinion if helped to see what I may of missed.

I appreciate your way of going for it. A good way to see other points of view.

Clubber

In what respect are they "far away from being realistic"? They fight in what is widely acknowledged to be the toughest ring art in the world, and sadly there are many documented deaths that have taken place in the Muay Thai ring. So many martial arts go on about their art being lethal, Muay Thai has inadvertedly proved the point on many occassions. In what way is that "far away from realistic"?

Basically as I answered above.
But to be complete, for sure MT is not the only sport/art of fighting where people die. Did you know MT has its origin in Pahuyuth. It is just a very, very small part out of the complete package about the Thailandese art of war, separated to be practiced in the ring. Everybody is aware you could not defend a country with MT, the war techniques etc are not included. But since everybody is already convinced MT is the hardest and best etc, imagine the complete package. What a special trained MT fighter would be able to perform. A way of fighting what includes MT as its basic, based on this fighting skills you can dominate swords, knifes etc. I saw Pahuyuth translated as cyclone-fighting, you can imagine why.
And many people died for Pahuyuth, learning by doing. And this knowledge is given from one teacher to the next generation of teacher. And every time less students to teach. Due to the extraordinary skills a student learns to deal with the students will show the teacher he can manage all the knowledge, just a few students become a teacher. Having all this knowledge about fighting is not easy to manage, you can imagine how dangerous this is.
Just to make it clear: I am not a teacher, I am a first grade student of MT, who got the chance to make some experience in all 5 of the basic subjects (where MT is one of them).

Originally Posted by Sieh Tanonchai View Post
"But really good guys would not fight in the ring"
You mean you would not fight in the ring

No, man, no way. I am talking about really good fighters, not me. As I said I once in a while enjoy boxing with competition-boxers.

george stando and tick,
Sunthus is a teacher of Pahuyuth who left Thailand long time ago. As far as I know he is teacher in all 5 subjects of Pahuyuth.
Now you probably think why he is known while (nearly) all other teachers like to be unknown?
I think he does not want Pahuyuth to disappear. If one day there is no student nor teacher the probably oldest (Thailandese) art of war is dead. By living 'anonymous' like Pahuyuth teacher used to live since ever, he can not help stopping this final way of Pahuyuth.
He is the first teacher who started to document these art of war since this never have been done. The usual way of passing by knowledge are drawings, small sentences and the teachers, so a student could understand. But just by watching the drawings a repeating the small sentences you won't learn anything.

Sieh