"Mai" Muay Thai Chaiya DVD by Kru Preang

[sportmuaythai]

OK, I now have the update on Kru Praeng and Fairtex. I first learned about Kru Praeng demo at Fairtex Bangplee when a Dutch student asked me late in Dec., what I thought of MuayChaiya. I told him that it was effective in its day, but take a very long time to master. I also told him that there are several schools that teach MuayChaiya, and that he should check them out carefully. The Dutch guy then said that there was a small demo the day before, and he wasn't impressed. He said that beside some maemai exhibition, Kru Praeng group also demoed some ground grappling tricks. When asked for more, Kru Praeng group told those attending that other moves were lethal, so they wouldn't demonstrate them. This left the spectators in a stage of " Duh?". Now, some students at Fairtex are professional MMA fighters, so they could see what was effectively demonstrated. Fairtex also has its own MMa fighter.
My trainer later told me that he accidentally heard of the demo, and went to the exercise room to observe it. Of all the guys there, my trainer said that only one guy appeared to know how to fight. This is the muscular guy which killer should know. However, my trainer said that the rest of the demonstrating group including killer were not fighter quality. He also added that Mr Wong came over to see the demo, and remarked that muaychaiya has the ground grappling that has some merits. This is lacking in ring sport muaythai. Nevertheless, my trainer believes that Fairtex MMA fighter could take on the demo guys since he was more agile.
This morning I talked with Mr Wong himself, and he confirmed that kru Praeng will be giving lessons at Fairtex Pattaya. He said that Kru Praeng approached him asking to hold the demo at Bangplee. Kru Praeng also traveled to Pattaya to train Yodsaenklai, Attachai and Naruepol in the ground grappling. Mr Wong said that muaychaiya will be taught by kru Praeng on a trial basis. However, no foreigner will be taught the ground grappling. Just stand up muaychaiya.

I have talk with attachai why do you want to train muay chaiya ?

He said becuase Muay chaiya has many technic for use to fight in ring and steet fight.
Why do you want to train with Kru preang ?

He said becuase Kru preang can use that technic so effective (he test by himself) and he siad i want to meet kru preang 5-10 year ago.i regret meet Kru preang for late.

This is my trainer's opinion. Attachai is a polite but a jolly fellow. His remarks were probably filled with sarcasm, because he said what killer wanted to hear. My trainer said that Attachai would never imply that Kru Praeng is a better teacher than his own teacher. Also professional fighters avoid street fight since this would damage their career.
I regret the bickering that goes on, despite fire cobra's call for cessation. Kru Praeng once announced that he would disown his students who make degrading remarks about other martial art or teacher. Yet his students continue to post that ring sport muaythai teacher lack deep knowledge of muaythai, and than go unchecked, even by killer who is on the team of kruPraeng. It's the Kru Praeng is better than anybody else attitude, just for commercial gain, that has turned other thai martial artists hostile.

[Tee Sok]

Thanks for the update Sportmuaythai!

[george stando]

"George i want talk with you na but i not stong in english - -.

I think i have know about story of muay chaiya more than you becuase i have to go collect information from many people against Muay Chaiya and i have train Martial Art in Many style i think i can discern between good or not good too."

Hey Killer,
You better stop while you are ahead.

Now you are telling me YOU know more than Me about Muay Chaiya and the situation. Then why dont YOU enlighten all of us because all you have done here is make a MORON of yourself. You certainly dont know anything about the situation at all as highlighted here. What styles of martial arts you trained in and for how long? How long have you trained in Muay Chaiya? What is your name--so I can look you up when I hit Bangkok shortly? answer these questions or personally PM me.

You are seriously misguided, lost and under the spell of the CULT leader, Kru Praeng who hasnt done anything in 25 years but spread lies, deceit and put a black eye on the world of Muay Chaiya.

You want to spread lies and fallacy then go ahead do it but be expected to be called out on it.

If you cant understand or speak english, stop posting on sites like this--who needs your nonsense?

WE know what the situation is with Kru Praeng and with Muay Chaiya, its YOU who is out of the loop and wandering around lost and misguided. Tell Kru Praeng to teach you the truth then come back here in maybe 10 years when his spell has warn off.....

[george stando]

Further on, Why would Mr. Wong of fairtex want Kru praeng to teach his ground grappling which I have seen and is weak and easily defeated by a person with only a couple of months of BJJ, sambo or anything of the like. Praeng doesnt understand the ground and its so easy to blow out its not even funny. It actually makes it easier to defeat since there are the common holes a person without true pressure and fighting experience would leave and those holes are easy to create a fast submission or ground and pound opportunity. In theory and in dead pattern practice, it looks good but watch it in action in real time against a true resisting opponent and you'll see the end result...defeat.

[killer]

Sorry for late. becuase i have go to pattaya and i don't have time to use internet.

Thank sportmuaythai for reply.

when you have talk to attachai you will recive answer about my word kub.

in this day have a webmaster about muaythai site go to interview attachai about muay chaiya and i listen that word again. i think you will see this interview in feb or march.

I can explain all story about muaychaiya in thai but i can't do it in english becuase i not stong in english T_T that is my problem.

i have train muay thai for 2 year Tai chi for 1 year tae kwan do and aikido for 6 six month. Muay chaiya i met kru Preang now 5 years.(Sat-Sun)

My name is pak you can see me at pattaya Wed-fri.

Kru preang have take picture about him work with Kru tong and lot of work you can see it in

http://www.muaychaiya.com/chaiyanurak.html

or

http://www.hi5.com/friend/photos/displayUserAlbum.do?albumId=131666852&ownerId=173211377

[george stando]

Killer:
Send your story in thai maybe to sportmuaythai and he can help with the translation, so I can understand your nonsense alot better.

Your training backround doesnt impress me personally at all, 5 years of training two days a week with kru praeng and the other stuff, doesnt warrant you knowing much about fighting at all in my opinion. But thats my opinion only.

Like I said you should get the truth from someone outside of kru praeng then you'll understand. Get some fighting experience in the real world, then you'll understand. Train realistically and functionally, then you will understand. The real world calls to you. Make use of it.

[natb19]

Hey guys, I saw this thread a week ago (since when I've been waiting for my account to clear) and I really have to put in my ten cents worth, and answer the call for information on this subject from outside of Kru Praeng's school.

You guys have covered a lot of issues about Muay Chaiya and I think a lot of points have been made from an external view, or from very biased internal views. I will try (but it's tricky from the inside!) to address some of the issues highlighted above. Anything I mention of internal politics is from my direct observation, and even though I have lived in Thailand for a while now and can speak, read and write thai, I'm still a westerner and some of the nuances of Thai issues may have passed me by.

I've had the honor to learn Muay Chaiya for over 5 years now under Ajarn Lek at Baan Chang Thai (Muay Thai Chaiya school) in Bangkok, and at Ajarn Lek's request have recently moved to Phuket to teach Muay Chaiya (btw, I teach mostly in Thai). Whilst I'm certainly still no master, I think I'm the best person to explain the style in the english language (so please, questions, questions!! .

Also, many thanks to george stando and sportsmuaythai (and others) who have tried to remain calm and give objective replies around this subject!

About Ajarn Lek
He's a great guy with a big heart, who is passionate that Muay Chaiya should be taught in the traditional manner as he was taught not only by Kruu Tong, but by the real master of Muay Thai Ajarn Kaet Siriapai (please check my blog for a more detailed account). As a sidenote, I do consider Ajarn Lek to be a master in the classical sense, as he not only teaches Muay Thai, but several other traditional Thai arts and so he is a well balanced and rounded individual, and not just someone who teaches fighting for a living! This may also account for Baan Chang Thai's lack of exposure, and difficulty to find.

Learning at Baan Chang Thai
Ajarn Lek's method of teaching Muay Chaiya gave me great respect for the art, as he focuses of the basics and fundamental techniques so that:

1) Non of the details (and there are many) that make the style strong are missed
2) You gain the body feel required to be able to use the style effectively and intuitively
3) As in all traditional martial arts, part of the time spent learning is also to enable you to grasp some of the underlying spiritual and ethical nuances, and hopefully shape you into a balanced person (who will not misuse the art, and have a bad attitude.. ie go round with your mouth flapping wildly)
4) THERE IS NO GROUNDWORK which is emphasized by the hard floor that we train on! Muay Chaiya is primarily a striking art, and this is what it is good for. There is a lot of hand work, and a good Chaiya fighters is just as good with his fists as he is with his feet.
5) Whilst the teaching is very rigid on technique, Ajarn Lek considers that once you have the Chaiya 'heart' then a lot of the details become second nature, and true expression of the style can begin.

The ambiance at Baan Chang Thai, is very friendly, and anyone is welcome to come and learn. They even have an open door policy, so that people (as long as they are respectful etc) can come and train with the equipment at any time for free. Unfortunately there are only a few people at Baan Chang Thai who train enough and have the experience to be able to really compete or fight professionally, but there are many capable students. People of different styles are welcome to come, and the students are always keen to learn details an insights from other kinds of Martial Arts. Likewise, many types of people come and learn, from young to old, both men and women, who want to learn Muay Thai, but are put off by the image of modern Muay Thai camps.

Is it easy to learn?
Yes and no. Because of it's simplicity, anyone can learn the basics (hence the vast array of students) but it takes a long time to really master. Certainly, previous martial arts experience can help, but they can also hinder as some of the base techniques/concepts in the style are a little ‘opposite’ to most other styles out there (including modern Muay Thai). As always, it is the dedication of the student that makes the most difference to the effectiveness of the learning.

Is the style effective?
Yes, very much so. I've spent most of my life studying one martial art or another, and many of the concepts in Muay Chaiya are very progressive and sometimes almost beautiful in their simplicity. The basic guard is strong, a lot of emphasis is put on footwork and the style of fighting is very pragmatic. One of the basic principles is to hurt the opponent's weapons (e.g. arm leg etc) at any given opportunity, hence the focus on blocking with the elbows and knees. The elbows and kicks are the bread and butter of Chaiya, but a huge amount of work goes into developing a student's 'boxing' skills. Many techniques have a feel of western boxing and Jeet Kune Do concepts mixed together, and quite often the shortest, most simple route is the best (no superfluous moves).
In recent years, Baan Chang Thai have produced several capable students, including Tae Chaiya (as seen in the ‘Chaiya’ movie who is one of the best stand up fighter’s I’ve had the pleasure to know) and has proved himself in the ring on many occasions, Kruu Aof is Baan Chang Thai’s main teacher (under Kruu Lek of course!) who is also a very capable fighter, great teacher and close friend. Kruu Pedro who’s persona reminds me a stalking tiger, has proven himself on many occasions. And there is also young Yao (sorry, not sure of surname who has had little problem proving herself in the ring (check out the youtube video YouTube - (Female fighter) Yao fights Muaythai @ Phuket Thailand for a nice example of the Muay Chaiya ram muay and a good fight).
A lot of the footage you see is of the more ‘flashy’ moves which are called the Look Mai (I believe this is why this was thread started) which are mostly advanced moves, and should only be used by experienced fighters. The core of the art is the basics, and the advanced Look Mai should be reserved for ‘the right moment’ in a fight, as they can be vulnerable to counter attack by competent, fresh fighters. To pull these moves of correctly when fighting a ‘real’ fighter, lots of practice and experience is required.

Fight!
When fighting in Muay Chaiya, the range is primarily controlled using fast and hard kicks to the lower and upper legs and knees. Higher kicks are reserved for ‘the right moment’ as any proficient fighter knows that high kicks can put you in a very vulnerable position. Once the range is closed, the elbows really come into play, and Muay Chiaya has a variety, each with their one usage for both attack and defense.
Obviously, sparring is tricky in any martial art, and certain restraints have to be put down. When we spar at Baan Chang Thai, the only thing we remove is any dangerous Look Mai, and the elbows. Heaviness of sparring is up to the students! It’s important to note that we do learn to fight! Not the showy style that you’ve probably seen on a lot of online videos. Sometimes we enjoy western boxing if we feel lazy or just to preserve our shins, as attacking someone who blocks with the elbows and knees can be very painful! Experienced fighters (with the right attitude) are welcomed, as it gives our students the opportunity to gain variety in their training.

Muay Chaiya and Groundwork
Some people think that Muay Chaiya should have groundwork, and this I disagree on. Martial arts have this striking/groundwork 'separation' because each area is vastly different in style and concept, and there is a huge amount of detail to be learned within each style. Coming from a Jeet Kune Do background, I feel that if you want to be a fully rounded fighter, then you should mix the styles you learn, but the styles shouldn't be mixed for you to learn (if that makes sense). Find a great master in each field, and then master them to your own capabilities. Gone are the days where you had to sign your life to a single master!
I would like to mention the venerable Kruu Pedro who runs a Muay Thai school in Chiang Mai. Kruu Pedro as a wonderful person who has taken the task of seeking out as many of the authentic SEA martial arts to combine them into his own style Muay Sangka. Kruu Pedro has a great amount of experience in both Muay Thai and ground fighting and has practical experience in the ring, both in Muay Thai and MMA. If you want to learn a more ‘full’ system, then please check out his website www.ancientmuaythai.com to learn more.

School politics (sigh)
For such a 'small' martial art, it really pains me to see the division within the schools, and I would love to see a little more camaraderie within the Muay Chaiya teachers, but here's a little background. There are now 5 Muay Chiaya schools that you can learn at in Thailand that I am aware of (please tell me of anymore – e.g. I’m not sure where Kruu Praeng’s students are teaching):

Baan Chang Thai (Chaiyarat Club), Bangkok - Kruu Lek (www.samkhum.com )
Studied under Ajarn Kaet Siriapai AND Kruu Tong
"Bann KruPreang" Siamyuth Center (Pahayut), Bangkok -Kruu Praeng (www.muaychaiya.com )
Studied under Kruu Tong
Muay Sangka – Chiang Mai: Kruu Pedro Villalobos (www.ancientmuaythai.com )
Studied under Ajarn Lek
Sukko Spa, Phuket: Kruu Nathan Brown (me) (www.mymuaythaichaiya.com )
Studied under Ajarn Lek
Thonglor, Bangkok: Kruu Mut
Studied under Ajarn Lek, but now denies this, even after the Keurn Kruu with Ajarn Lek?!

Muay Chaiya is also taught by students of Kruu Lek and Kruu Praeng such as Kruu Aof and Kruu Pong at various venues around Bangkok and Thailand.

The main divide between Kruu Lek and Kruu Praeng occurred because of Kruu Praeng’s insistence of adding groundwork to Muay Chaiya (see my thoughts above on this) where Ajarn Lek believes in teaching in the traditional sense. I prefer Kruu Pedro’s approach in development, as he has created his own style based on Muay Chaiya teaching in the traditional way taught by Kruu Lek, and has integrated modern groundwork techniques (and others) to create Muay Sangka.

As highlighted on this thread, this initial rift has been widened by Kruu Praeng’s student(s?) who seem to have a very immature way of conversing with other martial artists, and only seem to offer a very narrow minded approach when spreading the name of Muay Chaiya. This has had the effect of scarring the name of Muay Chaiya, and is something that Kruu Lek, Kruu Pedro and myself are keen to rectify.

Conclusion
I hope you’ve enjoyed my little rant, I apologise for the length, but you guys seem to have been discussing this a lot already! Again, if you have any questions, please check out my blog (www.mymuaythaichaiya.com - which I am in the process of updating) or contact me directly via nathan@sukkospa.com.

Peace.

[fire cobra]

Hey guys, I saw this thread a week ago (since when I've been waiting for my account to clear) and I really have to put in my ten cents worth, and answer the call for information on this subject from outside of Kru Praeng's school.

You guys have covered a lot of issues about Muay Chaiya and I think a lot of points have been made from an external view, or from very biased internal views. I will try (but it's tricky from the inside!) to address some of the issues highlighted above. Anything I mention of internal politics is from my direct observation, and even though I have lived in Thailand for a while now and can speak, read and write thai, I'm still a westerner and some of the nuances of Thai issues may have passed me by.

I've had the honor to learn Muay Chaiya for over 5 years now under Ajarn Lek at Baan Chang Thai (Muay Thai Chaiya school) in Bangkok, and at Ajarn Lek's request have recently moved to Phuket to teach Muay Chaiya (btw, I teach mostly in Thai). Whilst I'm certainly still no master, I think I'm the best person to explain the style in the english language (so please, questions, questions!! .

Also, many thanks to george stando and sportsmuaythai (and others) who have tried to remain calm and give objective replies around this subject!

About Ajarn Lek
He's a great guy with a big heart, who is passionate that Muay Chaiya should be taught in the traditional manner as he was taught not only by Kruu Tong, but by the real master of Muay Thai Ajarn Kaet Siriapai (please check my blog for a more detailed account). As a sidenote, I do consider Ajarn Lek to be a master in the classical sense, as he not only teaches Muay Thai, but several other traditional Thai arts and so he is a well balanced and rounded individual, and not just someone who teaches fighting for a living! This may also account for Baan Chang Thai's lack of exposure, and difficulty to find.

Learning at Baan Chang Thai
Ajarn Lek's method of teaching Muay Chaiya gave me great respect for the art, as he focuses of the basics and fundamental techniques so that:

1) Non of the details (and there are many) that make the style strong are missed
2) You gain the body feel required to be able to use the style effectively and intuitively
3) As in all traditional martial arts, part of the time spent learning is also to enable you to grasp some of the underlying spiritual and ethical nuances, and hopefully shape you into a balanced person (who will not misuse the art, and have a bad attitude.. ie go round with your mouth flapping wildly)
4) THERE IS NO GROUNDWORK which is emphasized by the hard floor that we train on! Muay Chaiya is primarily a striking art, and this is what it is good for. There is a lot of hand work, and a good Chaiya fighters is just as good with his fists as he is with his feet.
5) Whilst the teaching is very rigid on technique, Ajarn Lek considers that once you have the Chaiya 'heart' then a lot of the details become second nature, and true expression of the style can begin.

The ambiance at Baan Chang Thai, is very friendly, and anyone is welcome to come and learn. They even have an open door policy, so that people (as long as they are respectful etc) can come and train with the equipment at any time for free. Unfortunately there are only a few people at Baan Chang Thai who train enough and have the experience to be able to really compete or fight professionally, but there are many capable students. People of different styles are welcome to come, and the students are always keen to learn details an insights from other kinds of Martial Arts. Likewise, many types of people come and learn, from young to old, both men and women, who want to learn Muay Thai, but are put off by the image of modern Muay Thai camps.

Is it easy to learn?
Yes and no. Because of it's simplicity, anyone can learn the basics (hence the vast array of students) but it takes a long time to really master. Certainly, previous martial arts experience can help, but they can also hinder as some of the base techniques/concepts in the style are a little ‘opposite’ to most other styles out there (including modern Muay Thai). As always, it is the dedication of the student that makes the most difference to the effectiveness of the learning.

Is the style effective?
Yes, very much so. I've spent most of my life studying one martial art or another, and many of the concepts in Muay Chaiya are very progressive and sometimes almost beautiful in their simplicity. The basic guard is strong, a lot of emphasis is put on footwork and the style of fighting is very pragmatic. One of the basic principles is to hurt the opponent's weapons (e.g. arm leg etc) at any given opportunity, hence the focus on blocking with the elbows and knees. The elbows and kicks are the bread and butter of Chaiya, but a huge amount of work goes into developing a student's 'boxing' skills. Many techniques have a feel of western boxing and Jeet Kune Do concepts mixed together, and quite often the shortest, most simple route is the best (no superfluous moves).
In recent years, Baan Chang Thai have produced several capable students, including Tae Chaiya (as seen in the ‘Chaiya’ movie who is one of the best stand up fighter’s I’ve had the pleasure to know) and has proved himself in the ring on many occasions, Kruu Aof is Baan Chang Thai’s main teacher (under Kruu Lek of course!) who is also a very capable fighter, great teacher and close friend. Kruu Pedro who’s persona reminds me a stalking tiger, has proven himself on many occasions. And there is also young Yao (sorry, not sure of surname who has had little problem proving herself in the ring (check out the youtube video YouTube - (Female fighter) Yao fights Muaythai @ Phuket Thailand for a nice example of the Muay Chaiya ram muay and a good fight).
A lot of the footage you see is of the more ‘flashy’ moves which are called the Look Mai (I believe this is why this was thread started) which are mostly advanced moves, and should only be used by experienced fighters. The core of the art is the basics, and the advanced Look Mai should be reserved for ‘the right moment’ in a fight, as they can be vulnerable to counter attack by competent, fresh fighters. To pull these moves of correctly when fighting a ‘real’ fighter, lots of practice and experience is required.

Fight!
When fighting in Muay Chaiya, the range is primarily controlled using fast and hard kicks to the lower and upper legs and knees. Higher kicks are reserved for ‘the right moment’ as any proficient fighter knows that high kicks can put you in a very vulnerable position. Once the range is closed, the elbows really come into play, and Muay Chiaya has a variety, each with their one usage for both attack and defense.
Obviously, sparring is tricky in any martial art, and certain restraints have to be put down. When we spar at Baan Chang Thai, the only thing we remove is any dangerous Look Mai, and the elbows. Heaviness of sparring is up to the students! It’s important to note that we do learn to fight! Not the showy style that you’ve probably seen on a lot of online videos. Sometimes we enjoy western boxing if we feel lazy or just to preserve our shins, as attacking someone who blocks with the elbows and knees can be very painful! Experienced fighters (with the right attitude) are welcomed, as it gives our students the opportunity to gain variety in their training.

Muay Chaiya and Groundwork
Some people think that Muay Chaiya should have groundwork, and this I disagree on. Martial arts have this striking/groundwork 'separation' because each area is vastly different in style and concept, and there is a huge amount of detail to be learned within each style. Coming from a Jeet Kune Do background, I feel that if you want to be a fully rounded fighter, then you should mix the styles you learn, but the styles shouldn't be mixed for you to learn (if that makes sense). Find a great master in each field, and then master them to your own capabilities. Gone are the days where you had to sign your life to a single master!
I would like to mention the venerable Kruu Pedro who runs a Muay Thai school in Chiang Mai. Kruu Pedro as a wonderful person who has taken the task of seeking out as many of the authentic SEA martial arts to combine them into his own style Muay Sangka. Kruu Pedro has a great amount of experience in both Muay Thai and ground fighting and has practical experience in the ring, both in Muay Thai and MMA. If you want to learn a more ‘full’ system, then please check out his website www.ancientmuaythai.com to learn more.

School politics (sigh)
For such a 'small' martial art, it really pains me to see the division within the schools, and I would love to see a little more camaraderie within the Muay Chaiya teachers, but here's a little background. There are now 5 Muay Chiaya schools that you can learn at in Thailand that I am aware of (please tell me of anymore – e.g. I’m not sure where Kruu Praeng’s students are teaching):

Baan Chang Thai (Chaiyarat Club), Bangkok - Kruu Lek (www.samkhum.com )
Studied under Ajarn Kaet Siriapai AND Kruu Tong
"Bann KruPreang" Siamyuth Center (Pahayut), Bangkok -Kruu Praeng (www.muaychaiya.com )
Studied under Kruu Tong
Muay Sangka – Chiang Mai: Kruu Pedro Villalobos (www.ancientmuaythai.com )
Studied under Ajarn Lek
Sukko Spa, Phuket: Kruu Nathan Brown (me) (www.mymuaythaichaiya.com )
Studied under Ajarn Lek
Thonglor, Bangkok: Kruu Mut
Studied under Ajarn Lek, but now denies this, even after the Keurn Kruu with Ajarn Lek?!

Muay Chaiya is also taught by students of Kruu Lek and Kruu Praeng such as Kruu Aof and Kruu Pong at various venues around Bangkok and Thailand.

The main divide between Kruu Lek and Kruu Praeng occurred because of Kruu Praeng’s insistence of adding groundwork to Muay Chaiya (see my thoughts above on this) where Ajarn Lek believes in teaching in the traditional sense. I prefer Kruu Pedro’s approach in development, as he has created his own style based on Muay Chaiya teaching in the traditional way taught by Kruu Lek, and has integrated modern groundwork techniques (and others) to create Muay Sangka.

As highlighted on this thread, this initial rift has been widened by Kruu Praeng’s student(s?) who seem to have a very immature way of conversing with other martial artists, and only seem to offer a very narrow minded approach when spreading the name of Muay Chaiya. This has had the effect of scarring the name of Muay Chaiya, and is something that Kruu Lek, Kruu Pedro and myself are keen to rectify.

Conclusion
I hope you’ve enjoyed my little rant, I apologise for the length, but you guys seem to have been discussing this a lot already! Again, if you have any questions, please check out my blog (www.mymuaythaichaiya.com - which I am in the process of updating) or contact me directly via nathan@sukkospa.com.

Peace.

Good luck with the school brother,I have to agree that Ajarn Pedro is a top guy and a top practicioner/teacher..the real deal!.

[george stando]

Thanks, nathan. Good post and positive info!