To avoid confusion Chock - Muai was renamed Muay - Thai.
European boxing was designated as Muai - Sagon ( fist fight of the
foreigner ) by the Thais. It's introduction led to a further change in
the Thai rules. In 1919 boxing gloves ( Naum ) were introduced into
Muay - Thai.
Traditionally, wagering and the freedom to choose a preferred technique
had been an inherant part of fist fights. In 1927 it became legal,
under certain conditions, to bet on Muay-Thai, Muai-Sagon, and
wrestling. After a temporary regulation ( 1934 ) general fighting rules
were defined officially by the sports department in 1939.
For economical reasons the Raschdamnuern Stadium was privatized.
International standards were addopted in setting up rules for exclusive
professional Muay Thai events.
This took place in 1955. Generally fight rules, as commonly observed,
have remained unchanged from then until now. They were created by the
department of sports and the university of sports ( Sarintara
Virodoom ) and were officially published in 1962.
Kick - Boxing
In 1972 Osamu Nogushi, a Japanese native, sought to open a Kick-Boxing
training camp, the Nogushi Boxing Gym, in Bangkok. At that time the
term Kick-Boxing and/or Thai-Boxing was used by the Thai tourism
industry to denote the combat sport of Muay-Thai. Mr Osamu Nogushi now
asserted that Kick - Boxing was of Japanese origin.
A great many Thais, mainly students and young fighters, were distressed,
incensed, and furious. A spontaneous demonstration, involving rioting
against the Nogushi Gym, took place simultaneously with the opening of
the training camp. After some four hours the government announced the
immediate deportation of Mr Nogushi and the situation calmed down. The
training camp was closed and never opened again.
Afterwards this topic produced vehement discussions and even some
bloody quarrels among Thais of all persuasions. At first Mr Nogushi´s
assertion concerning the Japanese origin of Kick-Boxing was universally
regarded as a presumptuous insult.
Some also blamed organizers and officials for the profit hungry greed
which they imagined had led to the opening of Mr Nogushi's
establishment. Some time later, after Japanese diplomats and
representatives of Mr Nogushi had formally apologised to Thailand, it
became known that the Japanese instructor had had no intention of
disparaging Thai combat sports in any way.
The Japanese connected with Mr Nogushi had simply wanted to employ
knowledge of Chock-Muai , and especially knowlege of foot techniques,
in creating a new type of boxing modeled on the European style. They
were greatly interested in Thai use of the four elements: fist, foot,
elbow and knee.
Their idea of simplifying foot techniques while reducing the ferocity
of fights was aimed at achieving popularity as an international event.
In other words, economical conscerns motivated development of a
fighting style similar to Chock-Muai. At that time Kick-Boxing was
also not officially designated as Chock-Muai. Therefore the use of this
expression led often to misunderstandings.
In order to satisfy all conscerned, clever diplomacy prevailed and a
fighting competition in defence of honor was organized. Thai native
Chock-Muai fighters and Japanese Kick-Boxers would compete against
each other at the Raschdamnuern stadium.
Ajan Keht Sriejapai was known as a patriot and a most strict Chock-Muai
teacher. He now appealed to all of his students to use the unmistakable
and primary Thai language name when referring to their sport. In his
opinion it was incorrect to use the 'Muai' expression when referring to
boxing.
The students followed his lead and since then they have designated the
national fist fighting sport as Muay-Thai. Nowadays, in its present
form Muay-Thai is an independant competition sport that developed from
the weaponless art of Dtie-Muai fighting.
Competition fighting sport Muay - Thai_
The rules for fighting competitions and events can be divided into the
professional and the amateur categories. Still, the procedures are
quite similar. Muay-Thai fights are held in a ring. One fight lasts
five rounds with each round lasting three minutes each. The pause
between the rounds is two minutes. One referee, at least two judges,
and one time keeper control the fight. The fighters wear cotton
bandages and boxing gloves ( 4 oz or 6 oz ).
Fighters are obliged to wear standard Muay-Thai shorts, as well as
mouth and abdomen protection. Fights are organized into weight
categories following the European model. The fight can be decided in
three ways.
a.) by K.o.
b.) by T.k.o. ( technical K.o. )
c.) by points ( a fighter can attain a maximum of 5 points per round )
Generally forbidden fighting tactics include biting, priming, cursing,
throwing, attacks against falling opponents, and unfair use of the ring
or other objects. Fighters are obliged to perform the traditional
Rammuai Waikru before the fight starts.
While the use of fist, foot, knee, and elbow techniques is largely
unlimited, techniques from the period of King Pra Jauw Sueah have
become the established standard.
Muai Boran
The developmental origins of Muai-Thai or Muai Boran have two roots.
First, Pahuyuth ( stormfight ) and it's connection with natural spirits
and the magical strengths of deities. Second, Vicha Rob ( war
knowledge ) dealing with the use of weapons.
1.) The origin of Pahuyuth ( stormfight ) / Ling Lom ( air monkey ):
The fighting movements of Pahuyuth are essentially evasive manoeuvres
and/or defensive techniques. They require a high degree of agility for
rolls, falls, and turns. Fist, foot, knee, and elbow techniques are
used for defence or defusing the opponents attack.
Additionally, so called Maihtay ( dead certain techniques ) are used
against specific areas of the opponent´s body. These techniques have
withering effects and are used in tandem with the opponent´s flow of
movement to bring a fight to an end. The opponent, in these situations,
is at the technique's mercy. The process of the fight up to the final
moment is analyzed intellectually by the Pahuyuth fighter who impresses
the opponent´s techniques on his own mind in order to be able to use
his Mayhtai.
The opponent becomes irritated when realising his reflexes are 'wrong'.
When the moment of 'analyzed momentum' comes the use of Mayhtai will
result most often in the end of the fight.
Pra Jauw Sueah ( tiger king ), who established the Rammad Rammuai
during the years 1707 - 1708, declared prone fighting techniques as
unfair and unappetizing, so fighting techniques which did not lead to
death gained interest and popularity. Pahuyuth fighters also began to
specialize in standing position fighting because of the temptation of
wagering. They developed the independent standing Thai fighting style,
Dtie-Muai.
One fighting technique deriving from Pahuyuth has a defensive
character ( Muai-Rab ). It consists of acrobatic movements and
positions similar to the fighting movements of the monkey god Hanuman.
The names for these techniques come from the connection to him. At a
later time, Hanuman was honored as a teacher by Dtie-Muai fighters
through the performance of the Rammuai Waikru.
The fighting tactics of Pahuyuth are made somewhat clear by observing
their close quarter fighting techniques. As long as the opponent keeps
his distance a Pahuyuth fighter acts quite defensively, or animates his
opponent with playful attacking movements.
Only when the opponent comes within reach does the Pahuyuth fighter
begin to attack constantly ( Muai - Suhh Wong - Nai ). He combines
neck holds with typical techniques of the knee ( Djab Dtie Kauw ). The
elbow in turn uses the centrifugal force from the turn of the body to
attack the opponent ( Munn - Zock ).
2.) The origin of Vicha Rob ( war knowledge / weapon fighting ):
Traditionally, at the beginning of instruction in the field of
weaponry, body movement was first to be practiced. According to the
textbook Tamrab Pichaisonkram there existed exercises for sword
( Dab ), stick ( Plong ), knife ( Mied ) and arm-shield ( Grarock ).
These began to be practiced between 1096- 1256 AD.
From the beginning the use of fist, foot, knee, and elbow techniques,
as well as the use of weapons, all contributed to this fighting style
and it's aim of weakening opponents. It was intended as a sort of less
than ideal solution in case weapons were lost. The idea of weaponless
techniques centered around concepts of sword and knife use helped to
develop unique fist techniques. They contrast noticeably to European
fist techniques ( boxing ).
Foot techniques derived from use of the long stick ( Dtie - Grabong ).
Elbow techniques ( Zock ) developed from the techniques of the
armshield ( Grarock ). Knee techniques simply developed from the
standing Pahuyuth position.
Typical of the Die-Muai deriving from Vicha Rob is its attacking
character ( Muai-Ruck ). The fighting techniques also have this origin.
Utilisation of defensive techniques is not considered exemplary
practice for fighters adhering to this style. Victory is achieved using
attacking combinations from the beginning of the fight.
A further feature of this fighting method is positioning oneself at
considerable distance ( Muai - Wong Noog ) from the opponent. This
tactic is used to attack certain areas of the opponent´s body before
beginning the decisive attack combination.
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Chock - Muai
The fistfight Chock-Muai developed into a competition sport along two
seperate paths. The style of King Rama II concentrated on fighting
demonstrations and was only to be found in the capital. It was called
Muai - Loung ( fist fight of the state ).
But rehearsed fights were also popular and during these contests,
known as Muai - Radt ( middle class fist fight ) or Muai - Watt
( temple fist fight ), combatants were permitted to resort to any and
all tactics.
Muai - Watt ( temple fist fight ):
Traditionally the knowledge of the fist fight was spread by Buddhist
temples. Experienced fighters who retired or decided to convert to
Buddhism became priests in the temples. The temples were both
educational establishment and approved schools for masculine youth and
orphans.
In general parents sent their children to temple during the daytime
to learn reading and writing but not necessarily the art of fighting.
Young persons who were interested in the art of fighting could apply
to a teacher and/or priest to become a so called Lugsidt
( probationary student ).
Parents who had serious problems to educate their wild and outrageous
boys sometimes entrusted their educations to the temple priests. These
temple children ( called Dek - Watt ) then had the opportunity to
learn the art of fighting.
The learning pace of the students and their mastery of fighting arts,
especially concerning the fist fight, naturally depended on the will
of the teacher. The distinction between Ling Lom and different types
of Muai - Thai was not yet important because, in these fights,
everything was permitted.
During ceremonies at the temple the Dek - Watt were set up as
challengers to motivate other fighters to participate. Thus the temple
was able to obtain donations from spectators. Fighting against Dek -
Watt required one to be well prepared and cautious as the Dek - Watt
fighting style was sometimes unpredictable and quite outside of what
might be called a 'technique'.
The expression Muai - Watt comes from these fighting events organized
by the temples where Dek - Watt ( temple children ) were installed as
contestants.
Present day fighters whose conduct during a fight is unfair or illegal
( e.g. biting, spitting, cursing, offending or pulling the hair ) are
therefore designated as Muai - Watt.
Muay - Thai
The fighting sport of Muay-Thai ( then still called Chock - Muai ) was
only able to achieve something approaching it's present popularity
during the reign of RamaV ( Pra Jullajom Gauw, 1868 - 1910 ). Rama V
is also responsable for the abolition of serfdom.
In contrast to that of Muay-Thai, the popularity of the Muai Thai
fighting arts ( also called Dtie-Muai, Muai-Boran or Muai Duegdamban at
that time ) decreased because of a decline in opportunities for
instruction and a growing detachment from Chock-Muai. It therefore came
to be practised by only a few. Interest in Chock Muai faltered as well,
largely due to King Rama V's penchant for Grabieh - Grabong.
King Rama VI ( Somdet Pra Mongguthglauw ) of the Rattanagosin dynasty
( 1910 - 1925 ) is regarded as the founder of Chock-Muai in it's
present competition sport state. He introduced the traditional
fistfight as a competition whereas his father had neglected Chock Muai
because of a preferance for weapon fighting ( Grabieh - Grabong ). The
development of Chock-Muai to it's Muay-Thai expression can be traced in
the following groupings:
1.) The generation of Soun Gurab ( Rose garden )
King Rama VI, the father of Thai scouting ( Lugsueh ), constantly
organized Chock-Muai fist fights in the Soun Gurab. He standardized
the rules for the Muai-Roung and Muai-Watt. These were observed at all
fighting events. Provincial fighters strove to be chosen to participate
at the Soun Gurab. They wanted to experience the new rules, and also
to improve their career standing at home.
According to the report of Ajan Nag Tephassadin Na Ayuttaya, who
himself was involved in the instruction of weapon fighting, the
rules of Chock-Muai were as follows:
Fighting with bandages was permitted. Therefore the hands were bound
with cotton ( flocks ) up to the elbows. The bandage was fixed at the
knuckles and then hardened with rice milk or glue made from flour
( Kadd Schueack ). Abdomenal protection was also practiced utilising
cotton padding held by a belt.
A fight consisted of five rounds. Round duration was measured using the
sinking coconut method. The fight took place in a ring under a
referee's supervision. Fighting was allowed only while the combatants
remained in a standing position so that throwing or knocking down of
opponents lost importance. Biting was not allowed. Although fights
still occassionally resulted in fatalaties, these incidents decreased
sharply.
2.) The generation of Tah - Schang ( Elephant harbour )
Because of Rama VI's introduction of new rules, and the fist fight
competition's removal from public festivals, the sport regained lost
popularity.
3.) The generation of Soun - Sanug ( Kinds of pleasure )
These fighting events attracted foreign fighters who participated
according to Thai rules.
As one story goes the first time a Chinese fighter fought a Chock-Muai
practitioner the contest ended with a duel fatality. The Chinese is
said to have attacked the Thai's stomach causing intestinal damage.
Meanwhile the Thai broke the Chinese skull. The fight therefore ended
in a draw but since then no official fights between these two different
styles have been held.
4.) The generation of Lak - Muehng ( City column )
Businessmen and Chinese betting promoters opened the first training
camp for Thai and Chinese fighters. Fighters could participate at the
Soun Gurab with the help of the referee Kun Sunthorn Tawiesit. These
fist fighters also introduced the custom of writing their names on
their fight shorts ( Schaya ).
5.) The generation of Soun Jauw Sched ( Garden of Prince Sched )
The idea of increasing military finances through social affairs led to
the opening of the Lumpinie stadium. Young soldiers and recruits now
had the opportunity to compete as fighters in their spare time.
In the Raschdamnuern Stadium, however, only civilians and young men
from Bangkok could participate. It was soon recognized that the
fighters at the Lumpinie stadium treated each other much more roughly.
Additionally, the public was enthralled by knee and elbow techniques
commonly practiced there. Thus, Lumpinie became a very popular Bangkok
stadium within a very short time.
6.) The generation of Thai - Boxing ( Thai fist fighting sport )
Since the inception of fighting events their rules have changed
constantly. They still vary from one region to another. From 1912
Mr Viboon Sawatwong Sawatgull began to introduce European boxing from
England.Leave a comment:
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ok, that's fine for me.Originally posted by fire cobra View Post
I put some text in here as an information. For me there are many intersting things to read. I did not mean to discuss this necessarily.
Let's talk about your clinch etc in the technique comparison thread.
I answer in there.Leave a comment:
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Sieh,Originally posted by Sieh Tanonchai View Post
Im sorry but copying and pasting copy like you are at the moment isnt what I would construe as having a discussion about Muay Thai/Thai Martial Arts.
Also Ive once again read this info on aother site.
How about discussing wht your daily or weekly training routine consists of? for exmple do you shadow box? spar? practice technique with a partner?
I do all of these things most if not every day,as Ive got older the fitness aspects are harder but the strength aspects are easier,at the moment Im trying to work on more technique/variety of technique,but the last few years I have been trying to develop clinching which is very hard without experienced partners.Leave a comment:
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Pahuyuth - Weapons
The Tamrab Pichaisonkram can be compared to a handwritten original. It
was not bound but simply a collection of records concerning different
topics which grew larger over time. After the fall of the Sukothai
dynasty the collection was partially destroyed or lost. Records
relating to Buddhism and fighting arts were kept in Buddhist temples
until such time as it was determined that any substance that the book
had once contained was lost.
At about the same time that the Tamrab Pichaisonkram was gradually
being split up further works were setting forward the circumstances
surrounding the lack of cavalry in the Thai history of warfare.
Thai fighters were exclusively an infantry following a combat style
known as Pahuyuth, which translates freely as storm fight. Movements
were unpredictable and elements of the body were used as weapons.
Battle was preceded by ceremonies conducted for deity worship or in
order to summon spirits.
There were three kinds of weapons used in Pahuyuth: long range weapons
( Grabong, Njauw, Njiew ), standard weapons ( Dabrop ), and weapons
for specific protection purposes. Knowledge of long range weapon
fighting arts was also called Taengschang ( elephant sticking ).
Techniques for coordinated falls were later added to Pahuyuth. At
first these were known as Tah Togschang, or techniques for falling
from an elephant, but later both came to be referred to simply as
Pahuyuth. The Grarock had developed from the exercise with the
Grabong ( stick ) and was part of the equipment.
Pra Ongdamm
The story of the Thai King Naresurn begins in 1569AD. Owing to
betrayal and greed the Burmese succeeded in taking the Thai capital of
Ayuttaya. For the first time in their history the Thais lost their
freedom, and the 13year old Prince Pra Ongdamm ( later King Naresurn )
was abducted and taken as a hostage to Burma by the Burmese conqueror,
King Hongsavadie ( Buraeng Nong ).
King Hongsavadie treated the young prince as his own son and he was
priveledged to the same sort of royal upbringing and education as the
rest of Hongsavadie's family, a fact not lost on the king's grandson,
Manggayoh Schava, who regarded the interloper with suspicion and envy.
At any rate, after six years in captivity the young Thai was allowed
to return to Ayuttaya on reaching his 19th birthday in order to help
his father, King Pramahatamm Raschatirat, to govern.
According to the writings of Sir Josh Scott, an English cartographer
and historian, the Burmese lands were inhabited by three different
ethnic groups. The northern Burmese were descended from the Thaiyaih
while the people of central Burma were of Ceylonesian and Indian
descent. The Southern Burmese were descended from the Mohn ( Chinese:
Maevjueh ), a people who´s historical origin is unknown. The
development in such close proximity of these three ethnic groups,
often at war, occasionally at peace, led eventually to the
establishment of one nation, and more recently, the modern country of
Burma.
The history of Burma is incidentally rife with references concerning
development of the Thai sword. Many different expressions are used to
refer to the sword, depending largely on from what time the referance
comes.
According to the Tamnan Thaiyaih-Thaiahom ( Thai history ) the Thai
sword in it's various guises during it's Burmese development was known
as Dab Iravadie or Dab Thaiyaih. Typically, a Dab Iravadie has a
shorter hilt than it's Thai cousin as well as a broad blade with a
slightly curved top. Because of the breadth of the blade ( Tohng Dab )
it has an additional weight for rotary strokes quite opposite to that
of the hilt heavy Dab Nanjauw.
As the sword was used in Burma, strokes were largely limited to the
diagonal overhead sweeps. During combat, common practice saw neither
the hilt nor elements of the body used to strike an opponent.
The development of the Dab Iravadie and it's usage was centered around
the idea of fighting from horseback. For this reason - one hand was
of course required to hold on to the horse - the simultaneous use of
two swords became impractical.
Somdet Pra Naresurn
In 1581 the Burmese king Hongsavadie died and his son, Pra Jauw
Nanntaburaeng, was crowned to rule in his stead. Rulers of all
secondary cities were supposed to attend this corronation, and the
absence of the king of the city of Kang was regarded as a gross afront
in retaliation for which Pra Jauw Nanntaburaeng ordered an attack.
The troops descending on Kang were made up of Burmese under the
command of Prince Mangscheising, Mohn under the command of Prince
Nadjinnong, and Thai commanded by Prince Pra Ongdamm. All three
princes had formerly studied together under the same teacher at a
Burmese school of combat.
Each prince was therefore anxious to display his own superiority as
the impending battle neared. Their individual desires to better one
another grew so strong that they eventually decided against a joint
attack, instead organizing a competition whereby each should have
seven days time in which to attempt occupation of the city. It was
Prince Pra Ongdamm's approach, with it's tactical inclusion of Thai
fighting systems, which finally brought about a successful conquest.
Unfortunately, it also brought about distrust on the part of the
Burmese king.
This distrust led eventually to an assassination attempt against Pra
Ongdamm in retaliation for which he instigated a ritual of Rahng
Sinotock. Held on June 14th, 1584, this ceremony declared independance
for the Thais of the city of Kraeng.
After his independence declaration Prince Pra Ongdamm made a strong
effort to form an alliance encompassing all of the divergent Thai
groupings, but due largely to his youth, this did not prove to be an
easy task. The city kings thought him to young to be such a strong
and capable commander and he was forced to prove his leadership
abilities again and again.
It was he who originally altered the ritual Pithie Duem Namsabahn,
holding it in it's varied form of Nam Pipatsattaja ( holy water oath )
in which the sharing of Buddhist holy water replaced that of rice
wine, and the swearing of eternal independence, freedom, and unity for
the Thai nation was incorporated.
The ritual Nam Pipatsattaja was repeated many times at meetings of the
seperate Thai peoples. Traitors and those who refused to take the
oath were summarily executed.
Pra Ongdamm also made use of the Saiyasart derivative ritual Dtad
Maihkohmnam in order to cheer up his soldiers.
As a natural warrior, Pra Ongdamm endeavored to harvest maximal
results from his uncanny battlefield abilities. He always placed
himself among his soldiers with whom he fought side by side for
liberation from the Burmese and for Thai unity.
Records from this time confirm that he was the only member of any
royal family since the Glie Gauw Piehnong who had fought on the front
lines with his soldiers.
One well known story of his bravery relates how, holding his famous
Dab Kabkay ( fortress conquest sword ) in his teeth, he attempted to
climb the walls of a Burmese fortress ( Kay Prayanakorn ). In the
course of this action he was injured several times by Burmese spears
and eventually fell to earth. Undaunted, he rose and continued, being
forced to take his sword in hand in order to achieve his conquest and
prevent further injury.
His willingness to fight rather than to direct battles from a safe
vantage point brought boundless respect from his legion of followers.
Until 1590, the year that Pra Ongdamm was crowned Pra Naresurn, king
of the Thais, he continued to fight for the freedom and unity of his
people. Thereafter as king of independant Thailand he proved himself
a skilled diplomat in bringing about the grounding of many combat
centers offering training to Thai soldiers in a variety of different
systems and disciplines. The time of Pra Ongdamm is historically
regarded as a climax in the evolution of Thai combat.
Yuttahatti
In 1592, in the district of the town of Tambon Dtahpangruhh, King
Naresurn was faced with what in retrospect was in all likelihood his
most important fight atop a combat elephant ( Yuttahatti ). His
opponent on the day was the Burmese Prince Pra Maha Upparascha who
was commanding his troops in an attack on Ayuttaya.
At Tambon Dtahpangruhh he attacked a small army under King Naresurn's
command. During the ensuing battle king Naresurn's elephant became
seperated from his troops. He found himself in the midst of the
Burmese army where he came upon the Burmese prince relaxing in the
shade of a tree.
From his precarious position he hailed the Burmese prince and
challenged him to a duel. The Burmese prince, a man conditioned by
the idiosyncrasies of royal honor and battlefield diplomacy, felt
powerless to reject the challenge.
King Naresurn addressed his adversary:
" You, my revered brother prince, why do you rest here in the shade?
The battle is not yet decided. Many are injured and dying pitiful
deaths to satisfy our vanities. As a man born to a royal family I
challenge you to a duel ( Yuttahatti ). At stake shall be our honor
and the battle's outcome. Such special duels, where we demonstrate
our own power, will not exist in the future."
Both of them had acquired essentially the same knowledge from the same
teacher as schoolmates in their youth, so that they were well
aquainted with each other's strengths and weaknesses. King Naresurn
was, at any rate, correct in his assertion that such a unique duel, at
least in Thai history, would never occur again.
As the duel commenced, Prince Pra Maha Upparascha´s elephant rammed
the elephant of King Naresurn while the Burmese stabbed at his Thai
adversary with his Ngauw ( stick with a blade fixed at one end ). King
Naresurn took evasive action, losing some balance in a move close to
his own elephant's head, and the Ngauw only succeeded in impailing his
hat ( Pra Mahla ).
As he tumbled from his elephant´s back, King Naresurn expertly
transferred the energy captured in his fall into a powerful thrust of
his own Ngauw. Stabbing upward he struck the Burmese prince at the
hip, the blade proceeding diagonally upward through his body and
exiting at the opposite shoulder. The prince died instantly.
The Burmese soldiers paniced following the loss of their leader and
the Thais were subsequently able to free their encircled king.
Ever since, king Naresurn´s hat has been called Pra Mahlabieng ( the
hat that was cut by the Ngauw ). His Ngauw ( Prasaeang Kohhngauw ) is
called Jauw Praya Saennponplai ( prince who is victorious over the
enemy ) and his elephant Jauw Praya Cheiyanupab ( prince of all the
powerful ones ) is know alternately as Jauw Praya Prabhongsavadie
( prince of the victors of the city of Hongsavadie ).
Pithie Pratomgramm
Although his kingdom neighboured Thailand and though he was
subbordinate to the Thais at one time, the Cambodian King Praya Lawaek
began to attack and plunder Thai cities following the fall of Ayuttaya.
At the end of the Burmese-Thai wars, King Naresurn, as he had
promised, participated in the ritual of Pithie Pratomgramm ( cleaning
the tongue ). He then swiftly turned his attention to Cambodia,
attacking the capital, Lawaek, and arresting King Praya Lawaek in
order to question him on his dubious actions:
"You are a king who governs his own country as I do. If you greedily
covet my lands why do you not fight and strive to conquer, taking them
for your own? This is the right and usual way for kings to behave,
but instead you constantly raid our provinces. What do you think we
should do about this?
King Praya Lawaek recognized his sins and asked for his life but his
please were refused because of King Naresurn's vow to execute him.
After the ceremony of Pithie Pratomgramm he guaranteed the well-being
of Praya Lawaek's family.
A two storied pagoda was built at the place of the ceremony. It
depicted King Naresurn on the upper floor seated upon a makeshift
stool. On the lower floor was the executed King Lawaek, decapitated,
shown along with his severed head. The executioner collects the
streaming blood of the dead king in a vessel. He then carries it to
the top floor where he poures it over the feet of king Naresurn.
This representation was understood to show satisfaction gleened from
reparations paid for one's sins. As was necessary at that time, this
ritual also acted as a deterrent for enemies and traitors and
represented the decision making power of the Thais leader. Later, the
execution itself became a part of the ceremony.Leave a comment:
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Great. I would suggest to discuss anything what comes up, like history, technique, things to be seen (points of view) having in mind to see differences ("nobody is better"). Could be in this thread or any other.Originally posted by fire cobra View Post
I will look for something to start sooner than later, ok?Leave a comment:
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Sieh,Originally posted by Sieh Tanonchai View Post
I found the article you posted interesting,but I have read it or parts of it before a long while ago,cant remember where or when.
Im willing to have a conversation with you,what would you like to discuss?.Leave a comment:
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You saw my question I had, I expected a little "help":Originally posted by kyuss View Post
"Just one first question since I appreciate a discussion with you.
In case I do not want to prove my knowledge with names of persons etc what would be the way to have a technical and subject orientated conversation with you? Your answer would help me a lot to improve."
I am open for nearly all kind of conversation, but there is one thing I am not willing to accept. I am convinced, I really base my life on this, I am convinced everything you learn should be doublechecked by yourself. Either you know why this is right or wrong, or you don't. In case you don't know it (and you consequently can not really justify it), you simply believe. Knowledge ends where believing starts, you heard of it? It took me some time to understand as I heard it the first time, it is very true. Not new, but true.
And I am not willing to believe what anyone tells me unless I checked it (during a conversation I doublecheck just in my mind and see if the information fits into "my matrix".). No matter who he is, what name he has, what great something he did, if he gives me an information I verify for myself with my limited knowledge if this is reasonable.
All what I say is based on this of course. This is why it is meaningless who told me, my teacher or his teacher. Who cares? If the things I say are wrong, it is easy to rip me apart, if the things I say are right, you will have difficulties either to rip me apart or by practicing/fighting. If you think you know everything anyway than I am sorry, there is nothing I can do, neither I want to do.
If someone thinks he knows better, it is fine for me. My teacher is a Pahuyuth teacher consequently my way of boxing is based on this knowledge. Sure I fight different from a sport MT, but it is not better nor worse, it is different. Many things are done differently, who cares why? If I (or anyone else) see something what helps my teacher, fellows and me appreciate. If it is good and improves my knowledge I can keep it, if I see it do not pass my practicing "test", I drop it.
And the best is: Each one decides for himself, it is not the teacher/master/trainer who decides what you can keep and what you have to drop.
I learned this approach, from my teacher. Before I knew him I was told by many people (and still there is one sometimes coming in my life) to do so because they said so. Actually the attitude of some people in this board remind me of them. But this is not the way to learn, at least not my way, and I am no soldier.
Let us have our board-fighting based on knowledge, not based on names, names of our teachers or names of people we know. It doesn't make the given knowledge better or worse, at least not for me.
Could this be the base from where we have an interesting time ?
Sie T.Leave a comment:
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Nobody is going to discuss anything with you since you lack integrity. We asked you to reveal your sources and who learned from and how long to determine if you are a loose cannon joker masquerading as someone with any knowledge. But you refuse at every turn. Maybe you should cite the source material and books this post was taken from so it doesnt read as plagarism.
If you want to have "intellectual" or "theoretical" conversations then answer the questions put to you or refrain from trying to force a conversation with others than is not going to happen. Then maybe people will feel comfortable talking with someone who might potentially be off his rocker.
Funnier still, the person who answered this thread has one post which means he found this forum, defend.net and went through all the forums and threads and found this one the most interesting! Yeah, right!Leave a comment:
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Thanks, nice to hear.Originally posted by flonytre View Post
I am not sure why this thread is read but nobody says anything until now.
Shyness is not typical or fighters, isn't it?
Groaning seems to become a sport for one or the user user. I thought the discussions in this board are based on fighters skills, knowledge and sincerity.
Sieh T.Leave a comment:
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Great little topic.
And Nice work--thank you for sharing- for me this makes perfect sense though.Leave a comment:
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Historical issues about Muai / Muay
FYI
kind discussions are welcome.
Between 916 AD and 1006 AD, Pra Pansa, king of the city of Autong
( Ayuttaya ), which was later to be capital, organized Pahuyuth
competitions for the first time. The events were designed to take
place as public festivals with gambling on the outcome playing an
important role. Contests were friendy; killing of opponents was not
incorporated.
Gambling has always been important to the Thais. Even today it is a
natural component of combat sports. This early form of competition
was known as Muai or Panan-Muai.
MUAI means 'the fighting competition' and, as stated, it gave gambling
legal and communal outlet. PANAN means 'to bet'. In northern Thai
folklore, known as Pongsavadan Noueh, the terms Muai and Panan Muai
are acknowledged by the phrase: "Aou Kon Plam Panan Mueng," or, "Let
the people wrestle with each other that we may bet for the city."
These early contests, however, focused only on questions of technical
superiority.
Muai-Thai, later embraced as competative sport, recognizes King Pra
Pansa as it's founder. His gatherings included additional contests
of skill where wagers were placed. These included cockfights, or Muai
Gai , later called Dtie Gai and Schoon Gai ( chastisement of the
cock ), battles between fighting fish ( Muai Bpla-Gad ), and contests
between cobras and mongeese ( Muai Ngu; later Muai Nguhauw Gabb
Pangpon ). Chinese Gang Fu ( Kung Fu ) fighters took a leading role in
the proceedings, cumulatively referred to by the promoter as Muai Jek
( fight with Chinese). Muai Jek means the fight with Chinese.
Panan - Muai
Originally the Panan-Muai, or Muai, had no rules and no ring. The
arena was probably a fenced off, barren, and essentially flat ground
with four knee-high columns at the corners ( Lag Muai ).
The coaches sat on wooden columns taking bets on their fighters. Two
additional columns were set up as alternate betting offices.
Spectators either had to sit on the ground or stand beside the
columns.
Bets taken by the different offices were binding only if both parties
agreed by giving a recognized hand signal. Naturally, inaccurate bets
could not be called in.
Usually, a promoter who made a living from this unusal buisiness acted
as referee, time keeper, and judge, deciding on the winner of the
fight. However, in the event that the competition was promoted by the
royal house, civil servents were chosen to act as referees. They were
not permitted to place wagers.
Before the fight both fighters performed a dance ceremony in worship
of their ancestors' spirits, their teachers, and deities. This
traditional practice, known as Ram Vaih Kru ( one form of teacher
aknowledgement ), continues to the present day.
The mood surrounding Panan-Muai was that of a public festival. It was
accompanied musically by spectators who played instruments to
stimulate the fighters. Practices relating to Panan-Muai continue to
this day and are described in the Tamnan Noue ( folklore of northern
Thailand ).
The music acted to ease the mood of the competition, providing a light
release for the audience. At the same time, it helped to dictate
events in the fight itself by giving acoustic signals to the com-
batants. At the beginning of the competition, for example, during the
Ram Vaih Kru or as the combatants moved carefully towards each other
in the fight's formative stages,the music played a calm, serene tune.
As the action increased however, or indeed if those in attendance felt
that the pace was too slow, then the rythm and intensity of the music
would become more frantic.
The orchestra consisted of three instruments:
1. Bpie Sachawa ( Indonesian flute ),
2. Glongkaeck ( Indian drum ), including Gongkaek Dtoupuh ( high
pitched "male" drum) and Gongkaek Dtoumiah ( deep pitched "female"
drum ).
3. Sching ( bells of copper ).
The 21st king, Somdet Pra Jauw Prasarttong ( 1630 - 1655 ),
constructed a small palace called Peiyon Mahaprasat for the purpose of
weapon fights demonstrations and, initially, as a training area for
his bodyguards. The idea for the demonstrations had first come to his
mind as he searched for suitable candidates to serve in the Ongkarak,
or royal bodyguard.
He is therefore recognized as the founder of Thai competition sports.
During his reign, for the first time, participants used imitation
weapons made of rattan or bamboo in order to avoid serious injuries.
Fighters were further permitted to use weapons of their own choice,
even wholly unconventional ones. Such ingenuity often resulted in the
combatant receiving an additional reward regardless of the contest's
outcome.
In the reign of Somdet Pra Jauw Prasarttong during the time of
Ayuttaya, the expression Dtie-Muai was additionally introduced to
conotate Muai. During this period the first equiptment developed for
use in such contests in the form of hand bandages ( Pahh Pan Muehh )
and fighting movements centered on landing effective fist punches came
into vogue.
By involuntarily removing Pahuyuth hold, fall and roll techniques
intended for wrestling a new, independent style was formed. The
standing fistfight came about through neccessity as the new hand
bandages made wrestling grips almost impossible.
Additional hardening techniques applied to bandages, as well as
applications of sand and glass splinters, caused greater injury
dangers for the fighters conscerned. But the manipulation of bandages
for increased effect of the fist is seen as key to the developement
of Dtie-Muai as a universal Thai fist fight.
According to Ayuttaya records, the first fist fighting techniques
( Mad ) of this period could be distinguished from their forerunner,
Pahuyuth, in that the palms of the hands were not used. This
difference is often taken to indicate that Muai Boran ( Muai - Thai )
first developed around 1630AD.
From 1673, diplomatic relations existed between the Thai, ruled by
Ayuttaya's 24th king, and the France of Louis XIV. It was not
uncommon for French businessmen and sailors to occassionally quarrel
with their Thai associates and, in so much as these quarrels sometimes
found physical expression, the French could not help but be impressed
by Thai fighting arts, although as Europeans of the day they
considered kicking unacceptable in a fight between men. They took
Dtie-Muai, the fistfight, back to France ( without the Ram - Muai, the
dancelike movements ).
Among the French it became known as Savaté, a contest comparable to
the native European boxing but additionally allowing kicks. These
kicks are limited to targets below the waist. Knees and elbows are
not used as weapons of attack.
Historians are not in agreement as to whether Savaté is actually an
alteration of Dtie-Muai or an independent development stimulated by
French presence in Thailand.
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