What is Muay?

[black crown]

Amoung all of you guys in the Western world.

Muay, Muay Thai, Muay Boran, Muay Kad chuak, Muay Chaiya, Muay Korat, Muay "......" whatever, same or different spelling, might be heard from u.

You all may confused or have no idea about them. What are differences between them? What are they?...etc

This is explanation from me to you as friend to friend not a reference book's writer.


Muay / Muai ....is what we Thai call style of fighting without weapon...

Normally use 9 parts of body, head, 2 hands, 2 elbows, 2 knees and 2 feet. (For modern rules the limited the use of body weapon but for ancient time bite, fingers, back of knuckles, slap, hold, throw, catch, bone breaker, eye catching, eic were allowed.)

In ancient time when communication among the world wasn't so easy as it is now.

Muay meaned the way of Thai fight only....

But nowsaday when we say Muay, then the picture of fighting between 2 opponents appears in our mind...

If someone tell me there is Muay program on T.V. I may think of both Boxing or MT or even Chinese Kungfu. So to know exactly what Muay it is, I'll ask him what kind of Muay it is. After his reply, I'll will know exactly by the word after Muay "..." he answered me......suchlike, MT, Muay sakon (Boxing), Muay Cheen (Chinese Kungfu)...

The word "..." has to be added in the back to indicate what style it is..

Muay Thai = Thai Rules of Muay, which used by Thai. well-known as sport of MT and modern Rules. (Thai = Thai....eieiei )

Muay Sakol / sakon = International Rules of Muay or Boxing... (sakol = international)

Muay Boran = Traditional style of Muay which allowed many attacks and defends which Sport MT is prohibitted. (Boran = Ancient or oldage)

Muay Kaadchuak = Muay Boran which use lines and threads wrap around fist and arms instread of golve. (kaad = wrap, Chuak = lines or threads)

Muay Chaiya, Muay Korat, Muay Ta-sao, Muay Lopburi and others which a place added after Muay just to indicate where the origin of that style originated. (Muay Sakol / sakon = Muay from Sakolnakorn province .... same sound of boxing but different meaning..)

So all you need to know is what kind of suffix we added after Muay.
When you know it, you then understand what Muay ".." is.

Suffix word may be places, styles, origins, parts of body, countries, adj ,adv, whatever....

So confusing for you, isn't it? Just ask then you will get more info.

Cheers and Have a Happy practice.

Black Crown.







P.S. I've seen "Mauy Duekdammban" or "Prehistoric Muay" somewhere in the web. I was so curious and funny about it. It's just a commercial term to show off that his Muay is older than just ancient. Later we might see "Muay Dinosaur" or "Jurassic Muay" to bluff that this style of Muay was invented before "Prehistoric Muay"

[Tee Sok]

Hi Black crown,
thanks for all yout informative posts.

I have doubts about muay boran and muay ka chuak since it seems they
have been created more recently and they want to encompass all the old styles and roll them into one.
I asked my teacher in Thailand about muay ka chuak and he told me tere wasn't such a thing as a proper style, ka chuak was only the way they bound their fists.
I think they call muay ka chuak the yearly bouts between Thailand and Burma, but I think that's just a term for "bare knuckle" and not to indicate a style.
Thanks!

[black crown]

Yeah you are right. Kaad Chuak.... Firstly, It's not style. It's the way they wrap their hands in ancient time.

Term Muay Kaad Chuak is normally used to indicate the different from sport MT at the point of use threads wrapped around fists and arms instead of gloves.

It've been brought to yearly bouts between Thailand and Burma as you said for years. The fighters are sport or professional boxers at that time. So in that occasion just glove and no glove thing only.

The real meaning has changed as time goes by. Some mean it as old style cos modern MT uses glove.

I don't know who originally used term Muay Boran. We accept it as the meaning of Muay in traditional style which different from MT sport by now. It may came from commercial name.....May be.

So Muay Boran means Muay in the style different to MT in the ring. It could be Chaiya or Korat or Lopburi or others.

[Tee Sok]

Yes, it just means ancient way of fighting.
That's what has been so damaging in the West.
If there are authentic older styles and each has or had a lineage and record,
then why create muay boran?

I enquired a bit and the answer I got (both from Thailand and from the West) was that muay boran was created by the physical education department, and I even saw Thai kids doing that in schools, along with some krabi krabong.
And here too, there are issues about phys ed. and authentic old KK styles,
which were not referred to as krabi krabong when I asked about them in Thailand. But that's another topic!

[William]

Yes, it just means ancient way of fighting.
That's what has been so damaging in the West.
If there are authentic older styles and each has or had a lineage and record,
then why create muay boran?

I enquired a bit and the answer I got (both from Thailand and from the West) was that muay boran was created by the physical education department, and I even saw Thai kids doing that in schools, along with some krabi krabong.
And here too, there are issues about phys ed. and authentic old KK styles,
which were not referred to as krabi krabong when I asked about them in Thailand. But that's another topic!

This reminds me of the Kali debates.

We have sources out of Thailand using the Term Krabi Krabong.....

Col. Nattapong Buayam
Por Kru Sumai mesamarn
Ajarn Thonglor Trairatana
Grandmaster Vichit Cheechern

Then we have other sources saying there is no "Krabi Krabong". To an extent, the same thing happens with the term Muay Boran. I think one can see how this can be confusing to people interested in training.

The same type of things happens in the Kali, Eskrima, Arnis debates. There are Filipinos using the term Kali. Others in P.I. say Kali is made up. They push Eskrima or Arnis as true systems. The reality is that no one to date is really sure what the pre Spanish combative arts were called. It may not have been Kali, but it certainly wasn't Eskrima or Arnis either. I don't buy the mother art legend, but if it's combatively effective, what it's called doesn't concern me too much. Sure, I want to strive for historical accuracy, but the waters are still quite muddy.



William

[george stando]

William
I dont think what you are saying is correct at all! The term krabi krabong is correct, they all say krabi krabong but then it becomes the different systems of krabi krabong, sitarait, buddhai sawan, etc. Most people dont understand that in the US. Everyone uses krabi krabong, just like everyone uses muay. Muay Thai is known, muay boran is known now more for what is has become to distinguish it from muay thai which is fought in the ring. Chaiya, korat are distinct styles of muay or what they would say muay boran. So there is distinction, there is absolutely no debate here in thailand about krabi krabong, muay boran, muay thai, but within those terms krabi krabong and muay boran there is distinction and debate. So its a way, way, way different issue than kali, arnis, escrima......not the same. In recent times, there is krabi krabong for school systems like public education and muay boran too kids can learn, muay boran here is seems is an overview of all the styles with no fighting or outlet, they even have muay thai in college as a course. So its not the same thing in essence. So if you took a muay boran class and a muay chaiya class right at the start it would be different although muay boran would encompass some chiaya moves, it is not muay chaiya. Thats what i have seen and experienced here with my teacher as we went to the different classes, i mean you can see the differenet in intent and how hard the training was in chaiya vs the boran or whatever that would be accurately called. if want combative accuracy you certainly are not going to study muay boran in a phys ed class -same as krabi krabong--once understood then you will get a better idea. There is no confusion, its just some the people in the west that are confused about it. Most of which are trying to "sell" thier system and ideas. I think part of the problem too is the thais confuse alot of it they just want to teach whatever and say its just this or that. But if you go see the different teachers and classes they are different in structure, intensity and outcome. Even in stance, the muay korat stance is different from a muay chaiya stance and the approach to fighting. The starting posture from buddhaisawan in the doublesword is different form another style so you are engaging the opponent from a distinct starting position and basing your attacks from that. Of course, there is alot of common stuff to each style and thus the common stuff probably winded up in the classes of kk and mb. Those are my own observations from what I attended and saw, though limited was quite clear in the distinct lines. So in the end i would just add this little bit to the discussion since the title of the thread is muay--that muay boran can mean a physical education version created by those people for the schools like de Cesaris teaches and the other muay boran can be a blanket for the distinct muays of korat, etc. Thats the confusion for the muay stuff, muay thai remains just muay thai. I stick with the distinct words buddhaisawan,sitariat for kk systems like you said and muay boran for the phys education and muay korat, lopburi,lanna, for the distinct styles thats how my american teacher clearly defines them and the teachers and lines of those systems, so its very clear and accurate photo of the entire frame of whats out there. The thais dont seem to want it to be clear like that so maybe that too is part of the problem.

[William]

Whoa George!! That's a lot you're throwing at me there.

The "Kali" example wasn't the best way to put it. What I was getting at is that you see different posts and threads around the internet of some saying Muay Boran is just Phys Ed and doesn't encompass Accurate "old styles". Then you see others writing that Muay Boran is an "Umbrella" term used for a mixture of old styles from different systems. Then Tee Sok made the comment about KK styles that were not referred to as KK in Thailand. I was just trying to point out the confusing nature of things for folks interested but not knowledgeable about Thai systems.

I understand that in the West it's just Krabi Krabong. I know Vincent and possibly some others who are striving to make it known that there are other systems in existence. You also touch on a few other possible sources of confusion in your reply. Different people, different systems, coming out of different regions of the same country, plus increasing popularity can certainly lead to confusion. It's good to have people on the forum who can try to set things correctly.


William

[george stando]

I just dont see any confusion here if you train and see it, its not confusing at all.

Clarity is coming. As you see with the pahuyuth issues, certain people want to pollute and redirect and confuse people and they do an excellent job of that.

Most stuff on the internet is to sell, its mostly for a persons ego and I am this or that. You see very little research and breakdown of it or any truth to it. So when you say the internet is confusing well you need to go to sources of clarity, true training, and such. If you look at 99% of the posts and sites, it usually selling this system or this teacher or this person, its not about indepth training or presenting an open situation with clarity.

Also people have fought against the true stuff coming out and its mostly other thais who started the muay boran phys ed confusion as something to sell to gulliable foreigners, just look at the pahuyuth situation then you start with krabi krabong, muay boran, muay chaiya. You have a war at every end. People still live in the stone ages thinking buddhaisawan is the only kk method, i mean come on. Those days are over.

But the truth will prevail. It always does.

[black crown]

I think the biggest problem is language barrier.

Also as "Muay Boran",... If u don't understand what "Boran" means. You'll misinterpretation as this issue now.

If I say "Boran" to Thai, He will then understand that it's old and ancient or outdated......That's it.

Then you may think of Korat, KaadChuak, Chaiya, etc.

I would say whatever kinds of Muay which not normally use nowsaday in the ring. We will call it Muay Boran in general.

Under Muay Boran "Umbrella". There are many styles of Muay.

Some are olds and has linages but some are just recently mixed up and used "Boran" to add value for their commercial.

Muay Chaiya, Korat, Tasao, Lopburi , etc..are old and real. But some just brought their students wearing old style clothings, wrap their hands with threads then call it Boran.

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Same as Arwuth Thai (Thai weapons) also known and well known as Krabi Krabong.

Arwuth Thai or Krabi krabong has subsets as each weapons used. then set of different styles from different campus or locations. ( Bhuddhaisawan, Sritrairat, Krom Pala or Phy. Edu., Sriayuthtaya, Artamart Naresuan, etc. They all are under krabi krabong or awuth thai. Some are close to others, some are not. They have their own style. you'll know them by their stance or movement.)

Some call his arts as Krabi Krabong, some don't and remain calling as Arwuth Thai.


Let's say like this. You are going to hunt ducks. some say Ducks hunt, Shoot the ducks, Fire the ducks, whatever....It' the same.. But where you hunt?, How u hunt?, what r u going to use.? That's the different.

So as Muay Boran, Krabi Krabong...


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Please let me apologize for my poor english.

[William]

black crown,
Thank you for posting and sharing with us. No need to apologize, I understand what you are saying. This language barriers are certainly part of the issue. People not understanding, other people taking advantage of the misunderstanding, and eventually students of those people take what they were taught as gospel and spread it. The internet, for better or worse, is where most people will start searching for information. My point was that in the current state of things a beginner looking for information could be quite confused by it all.

Regarding George's last post, a while back I exchanged correspondence with Vincent on that very subject.



Best regards,
William

[george stando]

I think black crowns and my own post certainly cleans it up. Looking for information on the internet its tainted and a mess for the time being. People are taking advantage. It really doesnt take too much to really explain but of course then you will have those who want the confusion to remain so they can continue to do what they do as in any martial arts system or to protect rank or to stem any further questioning. But luckily there are those who want the real material to come out and it will as i said in time, piece by piece. remember people will even fight against anything that goes against their gospel even if its a lie, so it will take time to absorb.