street fights

[Guest]

"large muscles require a lot of blood to feed and thus take a lot of energy away from you in a long match. In an hour long jujutsu match the smaller, leaner guy would probably have an advantage over a monster, who is more likely to burn out."

I'm not sure that is actually true. People with large muscles may well have got them by overly concentrating on building them and neglecting their stamina work, but I suppose it amounts to the same thing. Didn't Hickson beef it up on the weights a while back to get to 200 lbs? I also read Neil Adam's biography. He was a world class Judo player and is still a ground work specialsit of world renown. So much so that even some of the Gracie's turned up at one of his seminars last year (maybe the year before). In his book he also describes how his Japanese teachers forbade the use of weight training as skill was more important. He fought some guy who had used the weights quite alot and was so impressed by the way he could use this great strength, by COMBINING it with his skill. So much so that he started weight training himself and swore by the results.

My personal goal is self defence. I work out with weights once a week on what is called a full body abbreviated programme. I would not expect a street fight to last anything like an hour.

One last thought though. Imagine if your favourite Gracie was suddenly blessed with a 50% increase in muscular strength without any loss of flexibility or stamina. Do you think he woud be a better fighter or not?


I could go on and on (in fact I am doing!) but the old fallacy's that weight training makes you slow, stiff and unfit have got to go!

[jonbid]

just thought i should mention that im actually 15 and the youngest in my kickboxing class. So for me, bodybuilding isnt really an option. I have done a lot of circuit training however and i think that has worked well.

It was only an observation about boxers, i have relatively no experience.

My main aim in kickboxing is getting to a standard in which i can stand up for myself and people around me when attacked or something. Is that a bad excuse to learn something like this?

[terry]

I come down squarely on the pro-weights side of that debate. My training partner in BJJ is 260 lbs and has a 725 deadlift, an 800 lb squat and a mid-500s bench. When he cranks an Americana or a triangle on you you'll change religions. It's something you have to feel to appreciate. But, I still have to respect that there are some very good fighters that don't lift.

Terry

[Guest]

"But, I still have to respect that there are some very good fighters that don't lift."

Very true. Anyway, if you don't enjoy lifting, don't do it. And vice versa. I just don't feel right if I don't get my weekly fix under the iron (as opposed to "ironing", which I also do!)

[terry]

[i]Originally posted by Br Thai[/]

I'm not sure that is actually true. People with large muscles may well have got them by overly concentrating on building them and neglecting their stamina work, but I suppose it amounts to the same thing.

I got to thinking about this, and I wanted to take another stab at it. You are right for the vast majority of people who would benefit from doing a mixture of strength training and endurance training. You are also right that the average guy in the gym who lifts weights hard doesn't attack cardio with the same aggressiveness. You are also right that a lot of fighters are doing more strength training these days.

But you could also be wrong in some cases. Specifically, when you get up in the higher ranks of power-lifters they start to become exclusively strength atheletes and require too much recovery time to function at a high level in a stamina sport. The speed and explosiveness is great for martial arts. However, their bodies also become optimized for that sport and they wind up like dragsters, able to put out an incredible amount of energy for a short explosive blast, after which they are spent. But the interesting thing about power-lifting is that it is a longevity sport. After you're done fighting you can still power-lift well into your 80s. In fact, the majority of world record holders in deadlift and bench are over 40.

It would be intersting to ask Arlan Sanford (aka Salty Dog) what he thinks about power-lifting combined with martial arts. He has done both and may have some intersting insights to share. I think I'll give him a jingle....

Terry

[Guest]

But you still have to have a balance. The exercise you do, whether weights, stretching, cardio etc. is there to complement your fighting art. I would never recommend that a person devoted so much time to the iron that they became a good class powerlifter. That could well be at the detriment of other essential factors in their overall training.

I love the weights, but I still only do them once a week. I can't lift like the top people in the gym, but I bet I'm stronger than 95 % of the adults I meet in a normal day.

Balance, Grass-hopper..........

[jonbid]

thats given me quite a bit to think of...

i was wondering, if when you train, you are effectively destroying muscle tissue, and in rest you repair that tissue and add a bit more, then when you train harder or for longer i imagine you "destroy" MORE tissue. So does this mean that when in rest it repairs that tissue and then a larger amount of extra tissue? than if you do a smaller work out for example.

Short Workout, Rest Recover previous tissue and small amount of extra
???Longer Workout, Rest Recover previous tissue and larger amount of extra???

My explanation isnt very good, i hope you understand what i mean.

Oh and in kickboxing, what colour is the first belt you get?
is it Blue?

[Guest]

You have to find the right balance for you. Some people, especially steroid abusers, can train every day. But most people would be best sticking to a maximum of twice a week.

Your other workouts will also affect your ability to recover, so it might be best to do one full body workout once a week, and take the next day off (or merely do some gentle stretching).


Remeber, if you don't let your body rest and recover you will overtain. That is when you feel like you don't want to workout, always feel tired, always pick up niggling colds and illnesses etc. Been there, done that!

[Sean J]

Originally posted by Bri Thai
"large muscles require a lot of blood to feed and thus take a lot of energy away from you in a long match. In an hour long jujutsu match the smaller, leaner guy would probably have an advantage over a monster, who is more likely to burn out."

I'm not sure that is actually true ...

I could go on and on (in fact I am doing!) but the old fallacy's that weight training makes you slow, stiff and unfit have got to go!

no this is not true. Big muscles also store a lot of energy as well. However it depends on the way the guy moves. A big guy has to take more care not to waste energy by moving his body too much up and down - rather than slide over the floor or something.

A good measure for this is a comparison with bike riders. Those who broke the hour-records on track were always big guys. When you move horisontally the body weight does not have much influence on speed, except that bigger guys have more power. When they ride in the mountains the smaller guys have an advantage, because they do not only have to push air aside, rather than also defeat gravity.

So with the same level of technique, the bigger guys are always in the advantage.

Sean J

[shredder]

Originally posted by jonbid
thats given me quite a bit to think of...

i was wondering, if when you train, you are effectively destroying muscle tissue, and in rest you repair that tissue and add a bit more, then when you train harder or for longer i imagine you "destroy" MORE tissue. So does this mean that when in rest it repairs that tissue and then a larger amount of extra tissue? than if you do a smaller work out for example.

Short Workout, Rest Recover previous tissue and small amount of extra
???Longer Workout, Rest Recover previous tissue and larger amount of extra???

Here is a graphical explanation, from an article by Frederick Hatfield titled "The Simplicity of Periodicity"
==

		Supercompensation (Time To Train Again)
				     *     *
				  *	      *
Train________________________Recovery_______________________________________
	*		       *	         *
	  *		    *			   *
	    *		 *			     *
	      *	      *			          Overreaching
		  *					 *
							   *
							     *  Overtraining

Caption: The time between your workouts -- which includes both recovery and supercompensation processes -- will vary anywhere from a day to as many as 6 or 7 days, depending upon 1) individual recuperative ability, 2) efficient use of supplements, diet, rest and other restorative techniques, 3) size and type of muscle, 4) severity of the overload (especially the severity of the eccentric phase of muscle contraction, and 5) gender and age.

==
I would say that point #2 suggests stretching as well.

In addition, your training experience plays a part in the recovery cycle. An absolute beginner will be using considerably less than 100% of his/her muscle fibers during exercise. Consequently, the nervous system and muscle micro-damage might recover within four days as opposed to upwards of seven for more experienced athletes.

As far as length of workouts for strength training - you will start to experience diminishing returns once the workout exceeds an hour. A "conventional" training method usually advocates 6-9 exercises of 2-3 sets, for a workout of 60 minutes, warmup and shower included. The number of reps depends on the factors of volume and intensity. A long workout can be the result of high volume (large number of working sets or a high number of reps per set), or high intensity (and thus long rest between sets). However, it is advisable to finish in an hour with either method, to take advantage of peak testosterone levels. Getting out of there and getting a good meal will do you more good than inefficient training.


Regardless, both volume and intensity are needed in the training cycle to maintain progression. Of course, you can't have both at the same time, which is why people like Dr. Squat write articles on periodicity.

[crazyjoe380]

i started as a street fighter... but i learned to box.. which made me a deadly street fighter..


i learn muay thai after that... and then took bjj...

but one thing that never changed.. was my knife, gun or any type of weapon... i'll probably have pepper spray ... if i mace you .. believe me i'm a dance around you and beat you till you turn to shit.. then really have fun..


thirtywohits must not live in los angeles cause even the strongest get dragged thru the mud in L.A. and if he's a martial artist .. what is doing fighting with street people? he is lying about that... i believe he's posting garbage to look cool. i however aint about lies i just do what i do.. and that's it..

some one comes at me trying to do some stupid shit.. i'll attack the balls, the eyes, anything... karate??? garbage!!!

yea you can know martial arts but all that practice means nothing when you are on the streets and not ready for it. there are rules and all of us don't follow them...

peace out..

[Corpsicle]

the problem with big musles and all that is the overall lack of fuctional use
i just got the Combat Condtioning book and videos and i love them
that and i use a kettlbell as well
its all about fuctional strength and endurence
and if you get into a real street fight
that will help you more than anything

[Biker]

Actually, big muscles do not have a lack of functional use. Unless, of course, you are going to put a definition on what you call "functional use." Huge muscles can act as a deterrent, basically stopping altercations before they happen. They can also attract trouble as well, their is always somebody who wants to take on the biggest guy. A pro bodybuilder has a definite limit in the land of range-of-motion. The muscles just plain start to get in the way. But don't think they can not move fast. A lot of their mass was built with a foundation in powerlifting, so their movements can be quite explosive.

Flexibility? A bodybuilder MUST stretch. A good number of them can drop into a full split, cold. Stretching helps the muscles recover by increasing the amount of blood that goes into the muscle. Bodybuilders move awkward, but do not let that fool you into thinking that they are slow and clumsy. Posing routines are a good example. More and more are incorporating balletic movements, feats of stretching and power movements (such as back flips), plus holding poses for extended periods of time, such as standing in a contest line-up. As an experiment, stand still for five minutes. All the while keeping your muscles slightly tensed so that they stand out more-so than usual. That is, keep every muscle from head to toe flexed. Pretty hard isn't it? They also do this with their bodies mostly depleted as a direct result of dieting down for a contest, so those people are doing these things with next to no energy. Muscle-bound is ALMOST pure myth, because there are bodybuilders that couldn't move fast or with grace if you put a gun to their head.

In my own personal experience, weight training is highly beneficial for practically any activity. You start to strain less while doing things such as work or playing with the kids. When things get easier to do, you can do them longer, to a point. Which is where cardio training comes in. Weight training also helps to strengthen bones, making it less likely that you will break them.

Weight training helps. Unfortunately it is vary inexact. It is about experimenting to find what works for you. Each person is different in how they respond to it and how they recover.

When you DO get into a fight, hit him hard first to let him know he's already lost. Weight training helps with that.

[Guest]

One of the problems with trying to build big muscles is that aerobic and anaerobic conditioning can hamper your muscle building results. Because of this many strength and size trainees devote very little, if any, time to it. This is why muscular men can end up being relatively easy to beat, as they have next to no endurance.

But if you are prepared to sacrifice some of your gains in muscle mass by doing hard cardio work you can have almost the best of both worlds - big strong muscles and the cadrio to last the course. American Footballers prove this.

[DJ Coldfusion]

First, I'm fat and lazy so disregard everything I am about to say.

1. Flexibility is not defined as an individual's ability to contort his or herself into a pretzel. Flexibility IS measured by examining the individual's strength at various levels of extension with the body part in question. Flexibility is strength.

Properly performed, weight lifting improves flexibility and can improve overall fitness. I doubt you will ever find an Olympic caliber gymnast (male or female) that doesn't lift. Everyone that I've met is a lifter.

2. Weight lifting, properly performed, improves explosiveness.

3. Weight lifting toughens the body.

4. Muscle is energy dependent, it requires energy even when it is at rest. So, if you're trying to drop some fat you should build muscle.

Its strange, but have you ever looked at studies comparing the body fat levels of endurance runners VS sprinters? At the world-class level the sprinters have a much lower body fat level even though the marathon distance athletes are burning more calories. The sprinters are also more muscular due partially to the way they train (weightlifting is normally included in their regimens) and partially because long distance running has a catabolic effect on the body and since the body turns muscle into energy at a much higher rate than it can turn fat into energy the muscles on distance runners tend to atrophy.

So my conclusions are:

1. Weight lifting does not "technically" interfer with flexibility. Although we all have seen guys in the gym who can't put their arms straight down their sides because of over developed lats. You have to decide what it is that you want out of weightlifting and then adapt your training to support those goals. Want sheer size? How about pure strength? What about endurance? Weight lifting can do it for you.

2. If you do run longer distances you absolutely must weight train to maintain your strength levels.