krabi-krabong part 1: the knife

[vissc]

vissc
is that you in the photo with the krabi?

Yes, I went with my friend and teacher to see some of the krabi krabong being taught in the different grade schools. They even have competitions.

Not me,I just would like to show how we dance with krabi only.Are you Thai?

[george stando]

I'm not thai but i have trained and fought muay thai in thailand and I am going to be living there for one year starting in january. I trained a bit in krabi krabong and wish to continue with it in the future.

[chalambok]

I thought I would merge all the relevant krabi-krabong threads. This year has been a good one for the art in the United States, with many more people realizing it goes so perfectly with their muay Thai. The sensitivity training provided by holding the pads, combined with the power gained by kicking the pads, is easily transferred to the weapons' system. Call it attribute training if you wish. I thought everyone might get a kick out of seeing how we lived at the Buddhai Swan in 1994 & 1995. This was after the new bunkhouse was built, with both showers and toilets. Prior to this we dipped water out of large ceramic jugs to pour over ourselves, and used some pit toilets that were off to the side. This seemed second-nature to me; when I was a kid we had an outhouse and a teepee shower system (a barrel of solar-heated water for the summer) until I was about 5, then until I was 11 we heated water on the stove and had a tub on the kitchen floor. Anyway, this picture is my bunk, mosquito net and all. Off to the side is Mike Delio from Long Beach, California, who arrived unannounced in January of 1995. I believe he has some students there now, but have had no luck contacting him for the last few years.

[chalambok]

Monkey Steals a Flower

For those who might be interested, while I was in Canada this past weekend I got a friend to post to YouTube the krabong versus mai sok demonstration done by Khru Bryan 'Double Dose' Dobler and myself, September 30 at Hollywood Park Casino in Los Angeles, CA. We chose these weapons because they are rarely shown outside of Thailand, and because the ram for the mai sok is quickly learned, so we had more time to work on the actual fight scenes. At the end you can see I pick up a rose from the ring apron, look for the prettiest girl in the audience and try to give it to her. It is all for a laugh, as that is what the mai sok is about, played as a monkey. Bryan just told me yesterday he has been invited to fight next month for the King's Cup in Bangkok. So we should all be proud and happy for him, and wish him lots of luck. Oh yes, at the end of the demo, before Bryan picks up the rose and reaches through the ropes to hand it to her, you can hear her screaming "Where's my flower?"

[Caddock]

That was great. I had to chuckle at the two of you hamming it up. A little prowrestling flair there when Khru Bryan was braining you with the mai sok. The knees got a good reaction from the crowd too.

My favourite bit was during the Ram when you are doing all the serious bits and Khru Bryan is just kind of bouncing and looking around. In my head I can hear 'doodeedoo' as he sits with no care in the world, wondering what the fuss is about.

[chalambok]

Body Language

It is always amazing to me how easy it is to spot 'the Monkey' during demonstrations. Every Thai in the audience that night complimented us upon our presentation. Which brings up this question: Why is it so easy to recognize a monkey and yet so hard to see the potential of confrontation. Is it gross body movement? Is it demeanor? We can even see it in the video, Khru Dobler was acting like a monkey, even going so far as to pick up the flower and offer it to the ring girl. (It was set up before, of course. I mean, no promoter will allow anyone to leave a rose on the ring apron. And we had talked with the girl so she knew she had a part, but we did not tell her anything other than to react when I made eye contact. She ad-libbed the scream "Where's my flower?" It was perfect.) In this photo it is obvious I was being secretive and suspicious, almost threatening in my demeanor. Someone standing thus can become combative very quickly. About 85% of humans (right-handers) will show you their left side and try to conceal their (possibly armed) right side; even so far as to hide the right side of their face. Just as people's eyes will go up and to the left if they are trying to think of a lie to tell, so will they turn their face to show you their left. This may not hold true for left-handers, that is still in dispute. Facial mannerisms and clues are not the subject of this section, however. I will be presenting different body postures and explaining a little. It is all explained much more concisely by Dr Paul Ekman, Gerard I Nierenberg, Henry H Calero, and many others. This was part of a paper I submitted for a class years ago. Notice my bad posture, my hands are in my pocket, I am seemingly not paying attention. I am also standing at the door, whether to flee or to control the viewer's exit undetermined. It is definitely NOT a neutral posture.

[Caddock]

Dr Ekman is mentioned here:

http://www.csoonline.com/read/120106/fea_guilty.html?source=nlt_csoupdate

As using techniques like you mentioned above to help the US TSA to SPOT suspicious folks in airports. Training people to recognize the facial patterns of badguys and differentiate between them and folks who are just nervous about flying, standing in line etc.

The article just says a lot of training, no details. It seems to me to be an involved field of study.

[chalambok]

Body Language

This one is pretty easy for everyone. You can tell by my closed posture, arms and legs, that I am feeling defensive. Not sure if the look-off is my trait or a general human mannerism. It is just coincidental that I am sitting at the door, but my teacher liked it, saying often when people are feeling defensive they are also looking for a way out, either of the situation or the conversation or whatever. To prevent confrontation with a defensive person, it is best not to be between them and the exit...

[chalambok]

Funeral Demonstration

This is a picture of Mike Delio and myself putting the finishing touch on a show we did for the funeral of a lady who had spent her life in the Thai Navy. I am not sure if she had gone to the Buddhai Swan in her youth, if she was a supporter of the school, or if her family wanted this. It was a common event, and a good way for us at the school to show our respect to the veterans who still willingly put their life on the line for the country. I am getting ready to front-cut Mike's leg when he kicks to my head, but I must wait for his leg to pivot through to avoid hurting his knee. It is critical that when you attempt a front cut you go down first, then across. If you attempt to go at the 45-degree angle down and sideways it is almost guaranteed you will run into his shin with your head. That is why you rarely, if ever, see a front cut in a muay Thai bout. It is a traditional self-defense or old-style technique, because of its danger (to either fighter, by the way. If you are not careful one can get his knee broken or the other his head concussed) not taught at competitive fighting schools. There are many valuable techniques from the old days not taught anymore because of the danger, during training, of devaluing the merchandise, so to speak. And muay Thai is, like every professional sport, money-driven.

[chalambok]

Short History Lesson

The current line of royalty in Thailand is descended, of course, from Rama 1. Rama 1 was a giant amongst men. He fought to unite Thailand, to keep Thailand free of foreign oppression, and to give the Thai people freedom. But he really was a giant. At a time when the average Asian was about 5'4" in height, he was 8 feet tall. No, that is not a misprint. His calves were 23" around. He used a sword with a 6' blade, the very sword Ajarn Samai used to bless our heads when we initiated into the Buddhai Swan. There are 2 life-sized statues of him in Thailand. One was commissioned by Pakroo Masamarn and stood in front of the Buddhai Swan in Nongkam for decades. This is the other statue, located up-country. Notice the gilt, placed on the statue as an offering to a shrine. In the front are PaKroo's daughter and grandson.

[Caddock]

Chalambok,

Referring back to your earlier funeral demo post. What happens to the older, valuable but dangerous techniques? I'm afraid I know the obvious answer is that they eventually are lost, or at least lost in the sense that the 'Thainess' of them isn't known.

Are there records of any sort for of these? I have heard of the Pichai Songkram but there must be newer more accesible items. What about instruction, if the mainstream camps are interested only in ring sports where would one go? How can we tell the charlatons from others?

[chalambok]

Well, the older techniques are not really lost. A lot of camps are ring-oriented solely, but even there you may find older instructors who remember how muay Thai was taught them. Ajarn Chai refers to this very thing in the Introduction to 'Thai Boxing, A Living Legacy.' Remember, it was only in the late 1930s the art was codified, so to speak, and elevated from the ground to the ring. There are still places where Thai grappling is taught. There is a book coming out this spring which should clarify most of your questions, written by Vincent Giordano. Unfortunately I do not know the publication date, but I believe it will be accompanied by a DVD series, including many masters and footage. Perhaps William can help us, I believe he is in touch with Ajarn Giordano on a regular basis. The best guard against a charlatan is to investigate his credentials, of course. If he is legitimate he will not mind. At the same time, remember that many people considered Bruce Lee a charlatan, until his philosophy was proven. Any teacher who can help a student grow has to be considered a success. His ability to 'do' is less important than his ability to stimulate growth in you.

[Caddock]

I am glad to know my first thoughts on an obvious answer weren't on track. I have read the Living Legacy and recall the in the foreward the section where Ajarn Chai list folks to look to from an earlier age.

Vincent Giordano has a few things in the works that interest me, a book about Muay Thai with a section on developing or evolving as a trainer was of particular interest. I haven't seen that it has been released yet, maybe it is the same one you refer too. I am keeping my eye open for that and for the availability of these videos; http://www.customflix.com/222578

Checking credentials is tough. I'm not of the opinion that lineage is the be all and end all in any learning situation and I agree with your stimulating growth comment. It seems in some fields of study credentials are easier to track and more organized than others. Also, occassionally even the charlatons are organized. One organization can seem as legit as another, a webpage can make something run by an unscrupulous person seem like an entire chartered university.

In the security field in which I work we have a cryptology model called the web of trust. You're probably familiar with the concept, it revolves around the idea that any one person extends trust to another basically because they know one another somehow. The web expands as the people the user knows vouches in some way for another person and so on. There are flaws but it works for the most part. Social networks work in much the same way, I think we all do it, I know I do at seminars, coferences and daily work.

[chalambok]

1st Chalambok Krabi-Krabong Camp

I am very pleased to announce I have just completed arrangements with Total Confidence Martial Arts (tcma.biz) in Bellingham WA for a Krabi-Krabong immersion camp this coming September. The location will be Orkila YMCA Camp on Orcas Island in the beautiful San Juans of Washington State. Dates are from Thursday, September 13 through Saturday the 15th. Accommodations are onsite, and hopefully we can attract 40 people for training. If anyone would like to come, please email Total Confidence for pricing or any other questions.

[george stando]

Vincents book on bare knuckle fighting arts is the Vanishing Flame, the second in the series is art of kings on the weapons systems. He worked hard to survive anything on the original bare knuckle fighitng systems in SE Asia and india. Teh Muay Thai book is seperate. I dont know the release dates but hopefully one or two will be out this year.
I went through the same problem trying to study the older bare knuckle arts, it was hard to find the last teachers.
The Krabi KRabong dvds are out, I posted a review on another part of the forum along with tee sok, if you want to check.