MT & self defence

[chris davis 200]

What are your opinions on non muscular people and smaller women using MT for defence.

The reason i ask is i was working the door not too long ago and a fellow 'doorwomen' working a bar across the road got into trouble with some guys , the first i knew about it was her punching the guy, he was not a huge bloke but was 'quite big' and she is a very proficient MT instructor.

Basically her punch had little effect. she hit him square in the face and he pretty much just stood there! He pushed her into a wall , she came back with a kick i think and some elbows, the guy ddnt go down and she got her nose broken! By this time her back up as well as us from the other door had arrived to help.

Afterwards we spoke while she was dabbing her bloody nose. I was talking to her and she basically said that she thought her tools would have worked far far better than they did, and was quite upset that they hadnt. I said that i thought that using strength against strenght only works if your stronger. She agreed.

I have a great respect for MT as a combat sport.

What are your thoughts?

cheers
Chris

[ryanhall]

Well, there's never a clean cut answer to a self-defense situation, so armchair quarterbacking is not too helpful. That said, I'll give it a try.

Firstoff, I would not hire a woman to work a door. This has nothing to do with sexism, just the simple fact that a woman will likely attract more trouble than a man, and she is very likely to be weaker than a man of the same size. I don't know how the rules work over there, but since you did not indicate otherwise, I will assume that you are allowed to strike first, even on the job.

She made a mistake by hittting with the fist- A woman almost always has smaller, more fragile hands than a man. Men break their hands when they hit anywhere but the nose, jaw, temple, or chin with a solid punch (sometimes even when they do everything right too). Therefore, a woman probably doesn't have any place trying to KO someone with a punch--that is unless she wants a mangled claw for a hand.

Secondly, she likely lacked the strength to hit effectively with conventional tools. I've never met a girl who could knock someone out with a punch (not sure how big/strong your friend here is).

As for muay thai as self-defense, it is not a "complete" system in any sense of the word, as it lacks grappling and precontact elements. However, it is a very solid striking art that has a lot to offer. Strength against strength can definitely work for a smaller, weaker individual if it is done properly. There is a difference between trying to wrestle with a giant and gaining the clinch long enough to throw some knees or a headbutt. I would not advise it as realistic self protection for a female, however. Women simply have to be smarter and use nastier tools. A woman can certainly defend herself against a larger man. Fighting one (as it was in this case), however, her odds decrease drastically.

Agree? Disagree?

[Grape_Ape]

Certainly martial arts can level the playing feild between men and women to a degree, but it would be extremely difficult for an average sized woman to take on a large man. Men are stronger for their size and strength can make up alot where technique fails.

[Kingston]

i think ryanhall makes a good point.

women doormen just arent as intimidating....

what can be said about what happened.......has she ever used her skills succesfully? If so maybe it was just a realy tough guy.

if it becomes strength VS strength the bigger and stronger will always win....If your MA has weight classes, dont fight people bigger then you.

one thing i will say is.... its not just about being able to use those "devistating" tools that you learn is class, you need to have the heart to use em in real life.

If you have that "do or die", "warrior spirit" attitude i think you have about 90% of what it takes to handle yourself in a real fight.
you also need common sence.

[ryanhall]

one thing i will say is.... its not just about being able to use those "devistating" tools that you learn is class, you need to have the heart to use em in real life.

A hugely underrecognized problem is this one. Since most of us 'normal' individuals do not like inflicting pain and suffering on others, we must overcome the tendency to go halfheartedly. This is an even bigger problem for women, who are by nature more nurturing and less confrontational than males. This is why working out moral issues beforehand is extremely important. In order to be successful in anything, you have to go all out, and self-defense is no exception.

If you have that "do or die", "warrior spirit" attitude i think you have about 90% of what it takes to handle yourself in a real fight.

Agree big time. "Killer instinct" takes you a long way, and is what makes a so-called "streetfighter" a tough person to handle. They will do anything and everything to cause you harm. In order to beat them, you need to be able to be more vicious than they are for the moment. It's not pretty and hopefully most of us will be able to avoid situations that require it, but the "killer instinct" is a reality of self-defense.

[Kingston]

Originally posted by ryanhall

A hugely underrecognized problem is this one. Since most of us 'normal' individuals do not like inflicting pain and suffering on others, we must overcome the tendency to go halfheartedly. This is an even bigger problem for women, who are by nature more nurturing and less confrontational than males. This is why working out moral issues beforehand is extremely important. In order to be successful in anything, you have to go all out, and self-defense is no exception.


Agree big time. "Killer instinct" takes you a long way, and is what makes a so-called "streetfighter" a tough person to handle. They will do anything and everything to cause you harm. In order to beat them, you need to be able to be more vicious than they are for the moment. It's not pretty and hopefully most of us will be able to avoid situations that require it, but the "killer instinct" is a reality of self-defense.

One of the Systema "philosophies" is that a person needs to execpt his "dark/evil" side, wich we all have, if they truly want to be as effective as possible. That way you dont have regret. its better to deal with your concious before hand, then to be left with shame/dissapointment after the fact.

i think its tied more into the spetnaz training though, they do some intresting things to reach "that point" im not sure if any students have succesfully done it, ill have to look into that

lol i dont know that much about it. Its not important for me right now anyway.

[chris davis 200]

Thanks for your repleys,

Over here female door staff are a requirement by law if you are intending to search females entering the premises.

they are not there for the guy but are for the girls (who can be real nasty).

However, it is a very solid striking art that has a lot to offer.

I do agree that it is a solid art for people with the stength to back up the techniques. but as has been mentioned, there are weight catagories in MT, boxing etc for a reason.

has she ever used her skills succesfully? If so maybe it was just a realy tough guy

She has used her techniques successfully against women and some smaller guys, This guy wasnt that hard - we floored him when he turned on us.

she is a firey one and is used to working the scene, (about 3 years i think) so i was shocked that she was so unprepared to deal with larger opponents, Elbows kicks punches, none really worked.

Thanks for the replys.

cheers
chris

[DJ Coldfusion]

Do you have to be strong to do Muay Thai?

No, but it sure doesn't hurt.

I've been involved in the martial arts for 18 years now. I have experience in Muay Thai, BJJ, JJJ, Kenpo, Tae Kwon Do, Hap Ki Do, Wrestling (Folkstyle, Freestyle, Greco), and more. And without out a doubt Muay Thai takes the "raw" beginner (male or female) and gives them more usefull tools in a shorter time than any other martial art.

I have seen women, and I'm talking small women, who after training Muay Thai for 6 months were hitting harder, faster, and could go at it longer with greater levels of contact than men (average size) who had been training in Tae Kwon Do for 7 years (yes 7).

Of course Muay Thai is a great selfdefense art.

Do I think its complete? Actually no.

I have really gravitated towards 4 different arts. Muay Thai (striking) , BJJ (ground fighting and escapes to standing), Kali (weapons), and wrestling (supplements and adds to everything else). Muay Thai is one tool in an entire tool-chest. It may be a great tool and perhaps even the one you go back to most often, but not even a leatherman (and were not discussing the Village People here) can do everything.

And in the end, sometimes your just schnickered. I once entered an arm wrestling contest and my first opponent had arms larger than my thighs (and for those who know me that is a frightening thing). The guys technique was horrible, but he damn near ripped my arm off. The same type of thing can happen in the street. When you are out-sized, or out-numbered, or your attacker(s) have weapons then you need to escalate it and find yourself something to equalize the situation whether its a friend, a chair, an ashtray, a Jeep Cherokee . . . whatever.

The woman described in the post that started this thread should have had backup, other bouncers, and she should have had an escape/evasion plan in place for this type of situation . . . not to mention a big f****ng stick to whack that gumbah upside the head with.

DJ

[Kingston]

Originally posted by DJ Coldfusion
Of course Muay Thai is a great selfdefense art.

fighting art sure, self defence art......not so much.

[DJ Coldfusion]

Originally posted by Kingston


fighting art sure, self defence art......not so much.

Why don't you read the rest of my post before objecting. Muay Thai is part of the tool-chest, not the whole tool-chest.

[Kingston]

Originally posted by DJ Coldfusion


Why don't you read the rest of my post before objecting. Muay Thai is part of the tool-chest, not the whole tool-chest.

i did, and that was kind of my point, this thread isn't about a tool chest, its about MT....

im not objecting to anything else in your post, otherwise i would have quoted it all.

[JP Prideaux]

I remember an article last year about these two ARMED guys that broke into a couple's house in the middle of the night.

The woman jumped the two of them in the darkness and attacked them. The one ran off. The other couldnt get away and subsequently had the shit beaten out of him by this woman while her husband called the police.

Police arrived and had to take the guy to the hospital for facial damage. The woman in question was a somethingth-dan in Shotokan and took part in the world championships a few months later.

I suppose when you're protecting your family on your own turf it could be a different matter entirely. The woman wasnt big. And most of the criminal scum down here arent big as well... usually underfed , drug-addicted who rely on their weapons more than anything else.

just useless info.

[chalambok]

Well, I think she did quite well. Ever had to fight someone 30-40 lbs heavier and maybe a foot taller, in tight quarters? Ego problems aside (mine as much as anyone's) she only got her nose broke, very minor. I and several other people I know have gotten our noses broken holding the pads for tests. I remember years ago Graciella Casillas got attacked by two men with knives beside the freeway. She happened to be wearing heels and a dress, but still managed to fight them off without getting injured. Yet armchair warriors were bitching because she didn't beat them into submission. Muay Thai not a good self-defense art? Wake up! You wrestlers expecially should know the advantage of size. She kept herself from being wrestled to the ground. Could you have? No, she used the right tools and did a commendable job. Shorter: use your elbows. Taller: use your knees. Maybe someone should ask her opponent what he thinks about her abilities.

[Kingston]

Originally posted by chalambok
Well, I think she did quite well. Ever had to fight someone 30-40 lbs heavier and maybe a foot taller, in tight quarters? Ego problems aside (mine as much as anyone's) she only got her nose broke, very minor. I and several other people I know have gotten our noses broken holding the pads for tests. I remember years ago Graciella Casillas got attacked by two men with knives beside the freeway. She happened to be wearing heels and a dress, but still managed to fight them off without getting injured. Yet armchair warriors were bitching because she didn't beat them into submission. Muay Thai not a good self-defense art? Wake up! You wrestlers expecially should know the advantage of size. She kept herself from being wrestled to the ground. Could you have? No, she used the right tools and did a commendable job. Shorter: use your elbows. Taller: use your knees. Maybe someone should ask her opponent what he thinks about her abilities.

your getting a little emotional here. I think the point is that she didn't faze the attacker.

Its realy doesn't matter how well "we" or "you" would have done in that situation.

wasn't she upset that her skills didn't work as well as she thought they should? I think that is why this thread was started.

mauy thai is good for fighting, fighting has obvious self defence benefits, but its only one peice of a large puzzle.

[bigknuckle]

thats not how you approached it before man

lets stay consistant dooder