thai roundhouse questions

[Crouchtig]

firstly, is the thai roundhouse more powerfull than a martial arts roundhouse, is it slower? do you keep the leg completely straight or should you bend it a little? do you wait until your body is turned on its side before the kick hits? how far should i lean back? do i hit with the middle of the shin or the part nearer to the foot? what sould my arms be doing (keep guard up/ lower right arm?) how do i do two consecutive kicks quickly without losing power? why is it harder to get a good technique with trainers on? how high should i lift my leg and how much space do i need to throw it (range/how far out does it swing). what is my target (low roundhouse: opponents leg but how low/high. thigh height or below?) should my foot be facing downwards or to the left (right kick)? i need answers.

[OctaviousBP]

I'll take a stab at it...

First off, you should be looking to your instructor/trainer for your primary instruction, but I'll have a go at some supplementary information.

In response to your questions:

The 'thai roundhouse' is referred to as simply a right and left kick here. When it is anything other than a simple round kick, then the trainer will specify, such as 'teep'. So from here on out, I'll refer to the kick simply as that... 'kick'. 'A martial arts roundhouse' is a little vague, so I'll assume a TKD roundhouse for comparison purposes.

The power of a kick is gauged not just on strength and speed, but also timing. However, in a straight up comparison of power against a stationary object such as a bag, a Thai kick will generate more power than a TKD roundhouse.

A proper kick in muay thai will have the kicker planting his post foot at a minimum of a 90 degree angle to target. The reason for this is to generate as much pivot, and therefore torque as possible.

The kick begins from the floor, and moves its way up the body. A good kick must have proper pivot. The plant foot acts as a catalyst to aid the hips in coming through the kick, which is the main source of power. Countless times have I heard/said the words "more hip" in my training/instruction.

To aid in performing a good hip-roll on your kick, try visualizing your hip holding an axe (your leg) and it is trying to chop straight through a tree (your target). Keep in mind this is the basic variation of a thai kick, there are others that will come up on an angle, and down on an angle. If at all possible your hip should be pointing almost down, towards the floor after the kick is executed.

I have never personally timed a Thai kick versus a TKD roundhouse, however there are about a gazillion fighters here that would make a strong argument for the thai kick not lacking in speed.

The leg/knee should have a slight bend, and at absolutely no time should it be completely straight, or snap during the kick. Ideally, the timing of impact would be at the end of the pivot, so your body has had the chance to create as much force as possible.

As far as leaning back or "prawning", the debate continues. This seems to be a matter of preference. I have had trainers tell me to get as far "up" as I can on my post leg, and some who say to slam my heel down. I don't really feel comfortable with too much of a forward lean, and do tend to lean a little bit back. This is not necessarily a reflection on good technique however. Work this one out with your trainer, and see what works for you.

Point of impact on your shin is again preference. If you think along the lines of your leg as being a fulcrum, the ends would be able to generate the most power, however your foot is too fragile and soft a surface to maximize the effect of the kick. I tend to kick roughly 3 inches above my ankle. Again, work this one out for yourself, some people like it higher.

If you are kicking with your right leg, your left should be guarding high, either on the high left side of your face, or across protecting the middle of your face. Your right arm will come down on the right side for balance.

Theoretically, your second kick in a multiple kick sequence should generate more power, due to (kinetic?) energy. The first kick is thrown from a stationary position, whereas the second kick has the benefit of spring energy. Use the mat to spring your kick back to target as soon as it touches down. The pivoting theory also differs on this one. I was taught for the longest time, one pivot for multiple kicks (foot pivot, not hip-roll). However, I have come across a trainer here who wanted to see a foot pivot for every kick thrown in a multiple sequence.

(holy crap you asked alot of questions...)

I'll skip the trainers question, because I've never kicked with them on.

As far as lifting your leg during the kick, I would say you don't want to exaggerate any motion, and not make any movements beside those necessary. These will all add time to the kick, and allow your oppenent opportunities to counter the kick.

The target of kick depends entirely on your preference, and the defence of your fighter. When you kick the leg, does he have a particularly low shield, or high one? Can you scoot one under the shield and take out his post? Is he lazy and can you land one easily on his upper thigh? On the other hand, is he carrying his hands low, and can you plant one at temple height? Is he dropping his hands when he strikes? etc, etc, etc. Work with your trainer in picking appropriate targets, and learn when to shoot for them.

The foot should not be facing downwards. When I visualize this, I picture an over rotation of the leg, and striking with the mussle on the side of the leg, rather than the shin. This would hurt. This is of course if I am visualizing your question properly.

I hope this helps.

David

[Crouchtig]

thanks

thanks that really helped a lot. im suprised you managed to answer all my questions. one thing: if you never kick with trainers on what would you do in a real fight? ask your opponent to wait while you take your shoes off? anyway, your answers were very helpful, ill talk to my instructor as you advised.

[kh_s]

eh ?

How about the follow through with the leg ? I haven`t been thought to execute this kick properly yet, (I dun really belong in a thai gym) but I tried to teath myself, and when I impact with the bag, my leg kinda pushes and turns into a straight leg as I land.

[OctaviousBP]

Glad it helped. I've never kicked with trainers or "shoes" because I wouldn't kick in a streetfight (I don't think) and if I had to, I wouldn't be too concerned about the slight difference in technique that would occur. The funny thing about fights is if you're not looking for them, they are pretty easy to avoid!

As far as the follow through is concerned, when executing the kick in the air during shadow boxing, you can spin right through the end, and come up with a shield on the other side. On a bag, after impact, the leg shouldn't straighten, and should return to the point on the floor that it left from (roughly).

[JP Prideaux]

Good advice there. Though its good to watch the experts.

Get a K-1 video... preferable one with Ernesto Hoost or Lloyd Van-Dams fighting. Both are VERY good with their low-kicks. True technicians.

Notice how Ernesto throws his body weight along the downward angle of his kick. That was something i kept overlooking. Getting your body weight behind it will make a HUGE difference.

[dave_UK_MT]

Re: I'll take a stab at it...

Originally posted by OctaviousBP
on the high left side of your face, or across protecting the middle of your face. Your right arm will come down on the right side for balance.

For a right kick we are taught to keep the left hand in the normal gaurd position and throw the right hand out to acover your opponents face. The right side of your head is protected with the extended arm and your shoulder, this will mean your opponent has less chance of seeing where the kick is going to land.

Puting your right arm down for balance, which I think os what OctaviousBP is saying, seems dangerous to me, you could just block the kick, simultaneously throw a left hook then come back immediatly with a left kick and so on.

As for as crap technique due to trainers; thats cos the kick is dependant on the pivot the ball of your foot provides. Wearing trainers means you cant pivot properly and this is what makes it awkward. Any good teacher should explain all this to you in detail though.

[kh_s]

from what I heard before

When your kicking right, is there any circular movement done with the left arm?

[terry]

Yes.

[PocketAces]

The question you answered is ambiguous, but are you saying that if you're kicking with your right leg, there's circular movement with your LEFT arm? I was taught to keep the left hand up to guard the face.

[OctaviousBP]

That's definately correct Dave... regarding the right hand during the kick. The reason why I said the hand should come down for balance is when starting out, it is hard for new kickers to rotate properly. They have alot to think about when learning the kick. When they get the rotation down, than the hand can come up. Again, this is just the way I was taught in the beginning (if I recall) and it might not be the way your instructor teaches it. Listen to your instructor.

[Great Sage]

I don't believe Muay Thai kicks are any more powerful than TKD kicks or any other type of kicking... I've seen kung-fu fighters and TKD fighters break just about anything from baseball bats to massive ice... It's all in the conditioning of the legs.

The idea that swing is more powerful than snap is arguable... More Muay Thai fighters train their legs to take punishment than the average TKD practitioner in the USA, so when the leg hits... it's the impact of the leg, not so much the swing. Snapping kicks don't necessarily rely on conditioned legs, but on the basic principle of a rubber band... Power is generated through the hips and snaps at the legs...

As far as speed... Thai kicks although fast, travel at a farther distance... They swing their legs taking more of a circular route... the low kicks are hard to read, but the head kicks are easily telegraphed... Hence, you don't see too many. I prefer the stop kick as opposed to the Thai low right kick... Stop kicks are faster, less telegraphed and is the equivalent of a boxer's jab.

Overall, Muay Thai fighters are better conditioned than the average Joe who goes to the gym to practice TKD for sport or exercise, so it's easy to assume that Muay Thai techniques are superior... But in my sparring sessions (I have 3 Muay Thai partners in crime), I've noticed that directly aligned kicks, such as side kicks, are very effective against MT fighters... Just my experience...

[aseepish]

Originally posted by Great Sage
I don't believe Muay Thai kicks are any more powerful than TKD kicks or any other type of kicking... I've seen kung-fu fighters and TKD fighters break just about anything from baseball bats to massive ice... It's all in the conditioning of the legs.

Let's just say that you have to feel them to appreciate them!

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by aseepish


Let's just say that you have to feel them to appreciate them!

Well, if you read my post... You'd know that I spar regularly with Muay Thai fighters and have the utmost respect for them... I've felt their power, but I don't believe it's anymore powerful because of the way they kick... It's in their conditioning. They'll be the first people to honestly tell you that I can kick just as hard and fast... since we critique our bouts every now and then.

I work out with MT fighters because they ARE a notch above the norm, but that doesn't automatically rank their techniques above all else... MT kicks depend much on conditioning and timing, same as any other kick.

[JP Prideaux]

Originally posted by Great Sage
I've noticed that directly aligned kicks, such as side kicks, are very effective against MT fighters...

Very true.