Advanced Certification in the Thai Boxing Association of the US

[Tim Mousel]

It is called the Thaiboxing Association and not the Thai Martial Arts Association. Seems the objective is to spread muay Thai and not all Thai arts.

If Ajarn Chai decides he wants to spread KK, the best way would be to make the study of it mandatory for his instructors. Encouragement definitely wouldn't have the same effectiveness. However, I hope he doesn't make it mandatory cause I think it will turn a lot of people off.

Tim

[chalambok]

A History Lesson

When I first went to the Buddhai Swan, it was to film the initiation ceremony of Ajarn Dan Inosanto and his wife Paula. At that time Master Chai told me he wanted me to return the next year and start training with Ajarn Samai Masamarn. When I returned in 1991, Greg Nelson, Mike Walrath and myself were told "Don't mess this up. This is very important to me" (Master Chai) "and politically important to the Association. Learn everything you can, and complete the requirements to become instructors." I was the only one of us 3 to do so, and returned from Thailand in 1995 with the direction to form the Buddhai Swan Krabi-Krabong Association of the United States because the United States Krabi-Krabong Association (or the Krabi-Krabong Association of the United States, I still do not know the name and I am supposed to be a Vice-President, although I do not have any contact with the President or anyone else supposedly affiliated with it) had failed in its mission to educate the public and start the process of instruction in the basics to Americans, and also because when I had asked to become a member I was denied permission because I did not belong to the Jeet Kune Do Association. I did this, and generated a lot of interest throughout North America, and even got the front page New Year's edition of the World Muay Thai International magazine. For that I was ostracized by the TBA/JKD crowd for years. I persevered, and with support from instructors in Europe and people of power in Thailand kept Krabi-Krabong in people's minds. In 2000 Colonel Nattapong was invited to the PNW Muay Thai Camp, and wowed everyone with his enthusiasm and fun drills. A meeting was held and I was publicly forced to renounce my association and fold the Buddhai-Swan Krabi-Krabong Association of the United States into Mr Inosanto's association, and was directed by Master Chai to take over the promulgation of the art in North America. Master Chai has repeatedly told me "Tell them I said to learn Krabi-Krabong." Apparently because he knows I do not lie he thinks other people know this. But my saying learn and him saying learn are very different things. I still do not know the name of the association I represent, and when I write letters or make phone calls to the only addrresses I have I get no answer. This is frustrating to me, as I only wish to promote and teach Krabi-Krabong, of which muay Thai is a part. As an aside, after the 2000 camp I was approached by over 60 people who 'promised' to bring me in for a seminar. Well, okay, so much for promises, but no effort has been made to truly learn the art. I agree with everything said in this discussion so far, but the problem still exists: How do we get the art kick-started here in America?

[Tim Mousel]

I think what has helped the muay Thai instuctorship desirable is that there is a set standard of how to become an instructor. The Test Guidelines issued 6/1/94 do a very good job of standardizing the association expectations. In outline form, it lists all the techniques that must be demonstrated along with the 15 and 17 count drills. It says exactly what needs to be done for Level 1, Level 2 and Apprentice, Associate, Full and Senior Instructor. This gives practitioners something to work towards. It's also helpful as a guide in training when an instructor isn't nearby.

It would be beneficial if some type of similar outline could be offered by KK. Students interested in the art could then use it to set short and long term goals.

To help the art spread, Ajarn Chai could distribute the KK guidelines to all his instructors and at his seminars. Also, anytime a KK instructor is available they could offer a 1 - 2 hour clinic after Ajarn Chai's seminar for a small additional fee to the participant.

I'm sure there are a lot of good ways to get the art spread but those seem like they would be good first steps.

Tim

[terry]

It is to the JKD analogy that I return. Guro Dan wanted to promote Muay Thai and thought that studying under Ajarn Chai would get people in better shape, so he put in a requirement that all Jun Fan instructors get certified under Ajarn Chai.

The results was problematic. You had several people who weren't in shape, who weren't proficient in Muay Thai showing up to take the test. Most of them failed the test miserably. (And the old guys know how fun it is to knock them out.) In any case, there were too many people among this crowd who just used Muay Thai for conditioning and didn't get it. Later, Guro Dan withdrew the requirement. That's what I want to stay away from. I don't want people showing up to learn KK just because they see it as a hoop to jump through. That won't help promote the art.

Steve's question is a good one. How do you best promote KK in the US? I think that you guys have been doing the right things: release a video tape, teach it at extended retreats like the Oregon Camp, have guys fight in tournaments with KK, give it wider exposure in magazine articles and seminars. What else could be done?

Terry

[ghostwolf0]

I agree with Tim and Terry. If you force people to learn, it doesn't mean they'll do a good job of it nor does it mean they will teach it. A couple of examples: if you go to a judo school, they do not force you to learn jujitsu, even though it could improve your judo skills. The second example against forced learning would be this: when I was in high school, it was REQUIRED that every student take biology to graduate. Well guess what....out of the 692 people I graduated with not one them went on to become a biologist....thats how well forced learning worked. Personally I would like to see a separate (but maybe affiliated) KK association. I would be willing to devote my time to its growth.

[fugetsu]

discourse vs. practice

Terry-
I am glad that you can add some ground-level, theory-in-action views on how the institutionalized Muay Thai curriculum actually worked.
I wonder, however, if the results were all bad. Did it not help promote
Thaiboxing and Ajarn Chai?
I understand the desire to protect Krabi-Krabong from would-be
hoop-jumpers, but wouldn't there be a far greater number who would
"get it"?
Again, I was not around to see how the mandatory Muay Thai worked out in actual practice. It nevertheless seemed like a smooth way to promote Thaiboxing then, and seems like it has potential for promoting Krabi-Krabong now. However, as your example demonstrates, turning discourse into practice is not always a simple matter.
We are back to square one. How can the Thaiboxing Association promote Krabi-Krabong and assure that the art's integrity is maintained? I doubt that a parallel system of ranking for Krabi-Krabong alongside the current Muay Thai system would attract the kind of numbers that Ajarn Chai is looking for. I do not imagine that regional affiliates are going to start flying in Steve Wilson (or other ranked Krabi instructors) for Krabi seminars unless they "have to" in order to fulfill their Muay Thai goals. Again, as you show, hoop-jumping has a number of drawbacks.
At any rate, it is unfortunate that I cannot make it to the camp this year (being currently in Japan) to see how this issue gets bantered around (if it does at all).
Terry, again, thank you for your insights.
Alex

[terry]

Alex, you're right that it isn't a real clearcut argument either way. One way to screen out the hoop-jumpers is to knock 'em out on the test. That has the added benefit of being particularly enjoyable for the hardcore MT guys.

[Ice]

Perhaps 'piggy-backing' with Ajarn Chai at a few seminars...

Hello Mr. Wilson,

Perhaps you should speak with Ajarn Chai about doing joint seminars - it is only logical given his feelings about Krabi-krabong.

I know that we at the Alaska Martial Arts Academy would love to learn Krabi-Krabong basics, etc. You should also talk to Fernando Pintang or Ken Thompson about it as well, they'll be at the Camp. Ajarn Chai's coming up here right after it wraps up, so anythings possible...

Just a thought,

Ward

[William]

(And the old guys know how fun it is to knock them out.).....One way to screen out the hoop-jumpers is to knock 'em out on the test. That has the added benefit of being particularly enjoyable for the hardcore MT guys.

Hmmm....that sheds some light on some of the testing experiences a few JKD people have told me about.

To require or not. The same question is being kicked about on the KK digest as well. There certainly isn't a clear cut answer, but I like the Idea of Ajarn Wilson piggy-backing KK seminars with Master Chai. Probably the best way to get the exsposure it deserves.


William

[darrianation]

There are some good serious discussion going on here I hate to ring in with a crappy post so sorry.

I am very interested in KK but I agree it shouldn't be forced on those who do not want to do it.

I don't know all the politics of the TBA but they might be keeping some people away with their policies.

[fugetsu]

follow-up thoughts

It may be hard to follow up on last nights rush of postings, but here are a few more thoughts.
1-Piggy-backing Muay Thai seminars with KK would probably not work. Ajarn Chai works a one-man-show, so to speak. Most people only get a limited exposure to Ajarn once a year, so many would be less than enthusiastic about shifting their attention from Ajarn Chai to Ajarn Steve Wilson half way through a seminar.
2-Tim Mousel's suggestion on a set of training/curriculum standards aimed at instructor certification for Krabi-Krabong is great. This sets up the third and most important point of contension:
3-There is already a parallel Krabi-Krabong Association of the USA, with Guru Dan Inosanto as President, Ajarn Steve Wilson as VP, with Khun Kru Greg Nelson and Khun Kru Mike Walrath as auxillary members (are you in there too Terry? Sorry if I missed you). But, as an Association it experiences the worst kind of institutional inertia. Ajarn Steve has complained many times about the lack of communication between members and apparent lack of interest in moving forward in a full-fledged manner (in a totally humorous side note, it may be that they just don't like Ajarn Steve, LOL, if this is true, then they are missing out because Steve is a very unique individual in the most complimentary sense of the term). Continuing, there has not been a serious attempt to put down standards or curriculum in any concrete manner. At any rate, this brings us back to the original question--we have instructors, we have the experience and we have a mother Association (TBA) to push forward the art of Krabi-Krabong, but no forward movement--why isn't Krabi-Krabong taking off the ground? Do the special characteristics of the art, ie training methods, danger, and the like inhibitive to the promotion of the art. We can all training Muay Thai, Kali/JKD/Maphilando Silat in a relatively small seminar space, but for Krabi it seems we need a full basketball court. Is this a factor? Or, do people simply have plates already so full now that Krabi gets pushed to the side?
Again, just a few follow-up thoughts.
Alex

[terry]

Nope, I'm a beginner in KK. I've wanted to study it in depth for several years but haven't had the airtime yet. However, I've had enough exposure to it to think highly of it. (Death of parents, birth of children, high stress job--has made it hard to be as active in the martial arts over the last couple of years. I've got some major changes in the works, so this is going to change in about a month.)

[William]

if this is true, then they are missing out because Steve is a very unique individual in the most complimentary sense of the term

I'll second that. Few like him, even my 5 yr old son always looked forward to him coming to the house. "When's Steve coming over?"

At one point we had a group of 5 or 6 guys studying KK with Ajarn Wilson over at my place. I had been exposed to KK staff through an occasional student of his and got hooked. I took the initiative to invite Ajarn Wilson over because I wanted to train KK with him and could also get a group together. Eventually the group fell apart, a number of people moved (including myself) to places where there is no KK available (which is just about everywhere). I tend to pick things up fast and I'm a copious note taker as well, so I still work the things that I was taught. Like Terry, I am a relative beginner in this art, but I'll tell you, what I have shown people usually strikes an interest. But, unless you have the dough to set up a seminar and not worry about getting your money back (at least break even), it's a tough one to set up on it's own at this time. It needs exposure and a chance for people to taste it. That's why I liked the idea of piggy-backing seminars. Give people a chance to experience it. If your not interested, leave when Chai's done with his portion. Or maybe piggy-back at key seminars for people interested in advanced certification to attend.
Just a couple of thoughts.

William

[William]

We can all training Muay Thai, Kali/JKD/Maphilando Silat in a relatively small seminar space, but for Krabi it seems we need a full basketball court.

Believe it or not, we used to train it in a two car garage during the winter. Talk about close quarter training....CONTROL THAT WEAPON SON!!!!


William

[William]

Please make a contribution. With the Pacific Northwest Muay Thai Camp coming in 3 weeks, it is an opportune time to air this grievance. Let us know if you think Krabi-Krabong should be a requirement for advanced certification. Thank you - Stephen M Wilson

Ok, maybe I should get back to the original question.

As a non-entity in the eyes of the TBA (but who has been trained exclusivley in MT & KK by a TBA instructor and a senior instructor), I'll throw in my unsolicted contribution as a "yes". I think KK should be added for advanced certification.

My feeling is that if you have trained MT and you take up KK, you will see and feel where many things in MT have come from....you will make the connection. As an advanced instructor, at the very least, you should be able to explain and demonstrate the where and the why of the origins of MT. KK will give you that ability in real time much better than wrote memorization of Thai history. Besides, it's an effective and cool combative system on it's own anyway.

They're different, but only by degrees.

(of course, this just leads us back to the how part....)


William