Kata vs. Shadow Boxing

[Deadman2002]

I perform TKD ITF patterns but dont find any practical use for them. I only do them because i have to. We laso perform shadow boxing which i feel is far better for fighting skills and gets the blood flowing really well.

[old skool dude]

Shadow Boxing Vs. Kata

Although there are obvious differences between Shadow Boxing and Kata (one being pre arranged and the other being spontaneous) both share a "gray area where they seem to merge.
Both re-enforce a specific sequence of techniques, or what ed Parker referred to as "alphabet of motion"
In one of the forms I practice, one sequence requires that I throw a front kick (to close the gap) folowed by an elbow strike, backfist, and reverse punch(which easily can be interpreted as a rear cross.)
What is impractical about that? that is just ONE example taken from a traditional Kata. In order for Kata to be the useful training tool that the masters said it was, these techniques must be extrapolated from the kata and practiced individually. Every karate/kung fu/hapkido etc. master KNOWS this, yet modern "enlightened" martial artists act as though these guys were idiots. Traditional Marital arts disciplines were battle tested in life and death encounters. Techinques had to be systemitized and catalogued in order to pass on the information to other trainees. Lets face it, it takes a certain amount of imagination to shadow box, I think we take it for granted that everyone possesses that ability to visualize.

As far as shadow boxing is concerned, it too, like kata, is based, however loosely, on ip"prearranged forms" A simple jab cross hook combo is a FORM, jab cross, roundkick is a FORM we all learn these prearranged sequences by watching others, practical application, and trial and error. They are still forms though and when we instruct others there are REASONS Why we tell novices to develop their jab FIRST as a foundation for other punches.
Your thoughs...

[MuayThaiFighter]

Although there are obvious differences between Shadow Boxing and Kata (one being pre arranged and the other being spontaneous) both share a "gray area where they seem to merge.
Both re-enforce a specific sequence of techniques, or what ed Parker referred to as "alphabet of motion"
In one of the forms I practice, one sequence requires that I throw a front kick (to close the gap) folowed by an elbow strike, backfist, and reverse punch(which easily can be interpreted as a rear cross.)
What is impractical about that? that is just ONE example taken from a traditional Kata. In order for Kata to be the useful training tool that the masters said it was, these techniques must be extrapolated from the kata and practiced individually. Every karate/kung fu/hapkido etc. master KNOWS this, yet modern "enlightened" martial artists act as though these guys were idiots. Traditional Marital arts disciplines were battle tested in life and death encounters. Techinques had to be systemitized and catalogued in order to pass on the information to other trainees. Lets face it, it takes a certain amount of imagination to shadow box, I think we take it for granted that everyone possesses that ability to visualize.

As far as shadow boxing is concerned, it too, like kata, is based, however loosely, on ip"prearranged forms" A simple jab cross hook combo is a FORM, jab cross, roundkick is a FORM we all learn these prearranged sequences by watching others, practical application, and trial and error. They are still forms though and when we instruct others there are REASONS Why we tell novices to develop their jab FIRST as a foundation for other punches.
Your thoughs...

I totally disagree with this,because there is a huge difference between kata and shadow boxing and you are mistaken when you say shadow boxing is based on prearranged forms just like kata.There are no prearranged movements in shadow boxing.In shadow boxing the movements are of those techniques you have learnt but there is no certain sequence to follow,with shadowing boxing you need to be creative and imagine how your opponent would attack you and how you'd defend yourself.You create your own combos.In a real fight you can't predict what your opponent intends on doing to you so how you fight depends on what situation you're put in.No two people fight exactly the same and not each fight is fought the same way so you have to be creative in shadow boxing.

In arts like karate,kung fu and tkd you don't need to be creative because you would never fight the same way you practice kata unless you're stupid.Also because these arts don't teach much practical self-defense there is no point in being creative and trying to imagine how you may have to defend yourself.

[sherwinc]

In arts like karate,kung fu and tkd you don't need to be creative because you would never fight the same way you practice kata unless you're stupid.Also because these arts don't teach much practical self-defense there is no point in being creative and trying to imagine how you may have to defend yourself.

In KungFu, i fight using my StickingHand, WalkingHand, and PushingHand, while insertion of elements found in Kata(almost)..... why????

cause it is bad to eat the food with only bread with no water and soup....

CONVINCED?????

i hope you know what i mean, you damn stupid..... HAW HAW HAW

Note:
in KungFu - Kata is your blueprint in fighting and therefore you should use it in a correct way and applications....

[MuayThaiFighter]

In KungFu, i fight using my StickingHand, WalkingHand, and PushingHand, while insertion of elements found in Kata(almost)..... why????

cause it is bad to eat the food with only bread with no water and soup....

CONVINCED?????

i hope you know what i mean, you damn stupid..... HAW HAW HAW

Note:
in KungFu - Kata is your blueprint in fighting and therefore you should use it in a correct way and applications....

No I'm not convinced.

I don't get convinced by BULLSHIT.

Katas are prearranged forms but definitely not blueprints to anything.The problem is people who believe that,have been brainwashed by their senseis or sifu instead of the students searching for the truth by doing several different arts and finding out for themselves what really would work.

Kung Fu is nothing more then just show,sure it can look cool just like in the classical movie from the 70's KUNG FU,with David Carradine but realistically speaking it's nothing.

I admit I liked the series and movie KUNG FU,they were cool,impressive moves used and it actually had an awesome story line to it,however I know it's not realistic.

[sherwinc]

No I'm not convinced.

I don't get convinced by BULLSHIT.

Katas are prearranged forms but definitely not blueprints to anything.The problem is people who believe that,have been brainwashed by their senseis or sifu instead of the students searching for the truth by doing several different arts and finding out for themselves what really would work.

Kung Fu is nothing more then just show,sure it can look cool just like in the classical movie from the 70's KUNG FU,with David Carradine but realistically speaking it's nothing.

I admit I liked the series and movie KUNG FU,they were cool,impressive moves used and it actually had an awesome story line to it,however I know it's not realistic.

this is what i am waiting and looking for...... that the word "KungFu" for you all there is like a David Carradine... and that type of kungfu is a waste of time......

the type of KungFu that i want to example is like those of the movie "The Shaolin Temple" or "The 36 Chambers of Shaolin Temple" or "Drunken Master part 1 of Jacky Chan" or "Fist of Fury of Bruce Lee"

David Carradine's Kungfu is extremely bullshit and BULLSHIT......

[MuayThaiFighter]

this is what i am waiting and looking for...... that the word "KungFu" for you all there is like a David Carradine... and that type of kungfu is a waste of time......

the type of KungFu that i want to example is like those of the movie "The Shaolin Temple" or "The 36 Chambers of Shaolin Temple" or "Drunken Master part 1 of Jacky Chan" or "Fist of Fury of Bruce Lee"

David Carradine's Kungfu is extremely bullshit and BULLSHIT......

"KungFu" for you all there is like a David Carradine... and that type of kungfu is a waste of time......

Perhaps but David Carradine's Kung Fu looks way more interesting then the real KUNG FU.

Kung Fu is crap and a waste of time to begin so what difference does it make but regardless the one David Carradine does in movie looks more realistic then your Kung Fu.I'd rather spend my money and time watching that then waste my time with the real KUNG FU.

I have the movie Drunk Master on DVD and that is also bullshit but still very entertaining to watch.I like Jackie Chan movies,they're always full of both action,and humour.Drunken Master also has some culture in it though.

[sherwinc]

"KungFu" for you all there is like a David Carradine... and that type of kungfu is a waste of time......

Perhaps but David Carradine's Kung Fu looks way more interesting then the real KUNG FU.

Kung Fu is crap and a waste of time to begin so what difference does it make but regardless the one David Carradine does in movie looks more realistic then your Kung Fu.I'd rather spend my money and time watching that then waste my time with the real KUNG FU.

I have the movie Drunk Master on DVD and that is also bullshit but still very entertaining to watch.I like Jackie Chan movies,they're always full of both action,and humour.Drunken Master also has some culture in it though.

I will rather vote for Muay Thai, Karate, and Tae Kwon Do to be the best martial art than choosing David Carradine's shit KungFu....

i think you choose david carradine's kungfu cause you are afraid to see the truth, you want to show that the effective kungfu is in david carradine but david carradine's kungfu is useless....

open your mind and throw away your pride

lesson just for you:
pride can be as deadly as a poison

[old skool dude]

Prearranged forms and kata

[I understand why you dis agree and perhaps the confusion lies in my inability to state my positon accurately.
While you are right in saying that in shadow boxing there is no specific sequence that you follow "religiously" I still maintain that the combinations and movements you do put together are based on
established combinations like the jab cross hook, jab cross uppercut, etc. that have proven to WORK in reality. It is not kata in the most rigid sense, I agree, but it is a looser freer kind of form. Anyway, it's just my opinion....

[cross]

For those interested,

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_home.htm

this site contains articles about the practical application of karate and kata.

It may give you an insight into the ideas behind kata.

And if this doesnt change your mind just dont practice kata, its that simple.

[old skool dude]

Kata vs shadow boxing

Simply put only way to truly learn how to fight is through proper technique, shadow boxing and sparring.
Be careful with using the word "ONLY" Shadow Boxing's strength lies in it's spontaneousness, and it's ability to help a fighter react instinctively, and decisively. In that respect, it does have an "advantage" over kata, (fro lack of a better word) Still, I see one "weakness" in one of shadow boxing's technique.
The Punches.(Jab Cross hook)
Shadow boxing is a training excercise for boxing which is a ring sport, which utilizes the wrapping of hands and the wearing of gloves. While Boxers Do punch to the body, many of the punches are targeted to the HEAD. Targeting punches to the head with your bare hands can result in you getting your hands broken as Mike Tyson has demonstrated when he got into a street fight several years ago with a thug named "blood green". Other techniques such as knees elbows and low kicks are fine for the street mainly because of the areas that are targeted, but if you habitually train by jabbing cross etc. to the face in shadow boxing, you may inevitably use those techniques in a street confrontation with disasterous results.
As for kata, for those who have chosen to not write it off so fast, many of the strikes are done open handed. Also, I think that when most people think of "kata" their minds automatically jump to the many shotokan karate Gedan Forms ( you know, low block reverse punch on hip pattern....) and lump all kata in that category. Silat has Kata or Jurus, that effectively train people for combat using principles of unbalancing, redirection sweeps and chokes. A lot of these forms are open ended which gives people an opportunity to "fit" the form into their particular body structure. Again, you only find this out when you are willing to take a second look and invest in your training.
Pikiti tirsha has "forms"within it's 64 attacks that can be practiced solo, or when extrapolated, practiced in two man sets.One of my favorate "katas"/drills is called break in break out which although it is a pattern/prearranged movement, effectively prepares you emotionally and physically for combat. There are also knife forms that you can practice that give you the same results. I would defy anyone to say that the FMA are not effective combat systems, and yet some of the systems do employ these "useless forms"
Martial arts is a journey, once it a while take a trip off the "beaten path" you may like what you see.

[Thai Bri]

The use of "shadow boxing" does NOT mean tha you have to use boxing techniques. You can use ANY striking and blocking movements, so that is hadlyt a valid criticism.

[sherwinc]

The use of "shadow boxing" does NOT mean tha you have to use boxing techniques. You can use ANY striking and blocking movements, so that is hadlyt a valid criticism.

blocking movements is only found in your training, but in a tournament like UFC - you did not emphasize "Defensive Moves", cause you block your opponents punch using your body or your head collision to his fist.....

and since you are very tough, your body/head collision to your opponents fist reached up to 12 rounds of fights....... with full of referree break....

HAW HAW HAW

[Thai Bri]

But at least an experience form a real fight is worth infinitely more than the theoretical crap you spout all day long!

CONVINCED!?!?!?!?!

[sherwinc]

But at least an experience form a real fight is worth infinitely more than the theoretical crap you spout all day long!

CONVINCED!?!?!?!?!

Your Boxing Opponent is stupid + you are also stupid = stupid

it simply means: if both of you and your opponent is stupid, how can you gain worth experience??????

is it an experience to be a pure stupid but it looks like not a stupid?????

HAW HAW HAW