Bernhard Goetz, the Subway Vigilante

[Uke]

at least Alans alive. he gets 3 meals a day, he can exercise, read books, gain degrees, and produce artwork. thats a lot more than many people on this earth have gotten, and even though prison can be real tough, its better than being dead and many people have made great accomplishments while in prison. id rather go to prison than have a clip emptied into my body anyday.

according to the article, bernhard had been mugged multiple times before this incident, and had been seriously injured in one of them. i think he had sufficient reason to take the action he did. plus, it was 4 on 1. nothing short of a firearm would have saved him, he would have been at the mercy of these guys. plus, if you try to threaten and mug people, you should expect that they are going to try to harm you back if they can. those 4 men were in the wrong, they were probobly too arrogant to think the helpless man they were planning to attack was armed and trained with his weapon.

The whole point of my story was that Alan had a reason to do what he did. What you're writing implies that Goetz has some payback owed to him because he had been mugged a couple of times before. 4 men who have not touched you and didn't produce weapons and you start firing even before the guys can see the gun, get scared and run? I can see if he pulled the gun and then they made moves that resembled reaching for a weapon, but he didn't even give them that kind of chance. His whole deal was about payback. He was tired of being a victim, so he went out and bought some Saturday Night Special justice.Alan was not only assaulted, but he had previously been told that they were going to kill him. These were not friends talking sh!t. These were out of towners who had been brandishing guns for the last couple of weeks, trying to look cool and tough. Alan had no doubt that they were armed, whereas Goetz admitted he didn't think any of the men that approached him were armed.


If you want to shoot someone, that's your call, EmptyneSs. The purpose of my participation here was to caution some people who want good advice. If you shoot someone and they didn't touch you or produce a weapon, you're going to prison. If they didn't have a weapon and they die as a result of you shooting them, depending on where you're at you may be facing the death penalty.

Some of the comments here are EXACTLY why gun control is necessary. I can almost guarantee that the same guy who would shoot prematurely like Goetz did, would be the same guy who sees his ex-girlfriend with her new boyfriend, start a fight and once the guy started kicking his @ss, he'd pull out his gun and shoot him.

[J-Luck]

The whole point of my story was that Alan had a reason to do what he did. What you're writing implies that Goetz has some payback owed to him because he had been mugged a couple of times before. 4 men who have not touched you and didn't produce weapons and you start firing even before the guys can see the gun, get scared and run? I can see if he pulled the gun and then they made moves that resembled reaching for a weapon, but he didn't even give them that kind of chance. His whole deal was about payback. He was tired of being a victim, so he went out and bought some Saturday Night Special justice.Alan was not only assaulted, but he had previously been told that they were going to kill him. These were not friends talking sh!t. These were out of towners who had been brandishing guns for the last couple of weeks, trying to look cool and tough. Alan had no doubt that they were armed, whereas Goetz admitted he didn't think any of the men that approached him were armed.


If you want to shoot someone, that's your call, EmptyneSs. The purpose of my participation here was to caution some people who want good advice. If you shoot someone and they didn't touch you or produce a weapon, you're going to prison. If they didn't have a weapon and they die as a result of you shooting them, depending on where you're at you may be facing the death penalty.

Some of the comments here are EXACTLY why gun control is necessary. I can almost guarantee that the same guy who would shoot prematurely like Goetz did, would be the same guy who sees his ex-girlfriend with her new boyfriend, start a fight and once the guy started kicking his @ss, he'd pull out his gun and shoot him.

I agreed with your whole post, till you got to the part about a guy shooting his gf's lover. That seemed like a personal assumption not based in any reality. Good post though.

[Uke]

It is a personal assumption based on the rashness of an individuals choices. I wasn't saying anyone who gets scared of four guys would kill his girlfriend's new boyfriend. I am saying that anyone who can objectively look at those 2 situations without being in them and still come to the same cowardly decision that Goetz made, and it was cowardly, has a high probability of doing something equally as cowardly.

Another point that was made by you J-Luck, but overlooked was the fact that the story could have been skewed, as Goetz was the one giving the account of how things happened. How do we know that he didn't make some racist remark, or get into a staring match with these guy? It could have been just a case of them busting his balls, but before anyone did anything, or even made an attempt to do anything, he shot them. And on top of that he stated that he didn't think that they were armed at any point. If you don't think that you're up against weapons, but you still speed shoot 4 people before they ever touch you or even reach for what may appear to be a weapon, you are cowardly. I remember when this incident happened here in NY. And it wasn't as cut and dry as Wikpedia made it seem.

IMO, it didn't even have to be 4 people, just a guy who was much bigger than him dressed like a urban person(leather jacket, boots, jeans, skullcap) and I believe he would have shot him too even if he believed him to be unarmed. Which goes right back to my comment about the girlfriend. If a guy feels empowered by a gun, his personality will be what some like to call "enhanced". In other words, he'll be walking around feeling like he's got a new found confidence. If he saw his girl that dumped him and won't return his calls, and he's angry about it and feels that she might have been involved with the guy during their relationship, then IMO I feel he has the right personality type to approach and start and altercation. And if the guy started kicking his ass, I believe that type of guy would pull out instead of fighting. Now that's my opinion, but I've known a lot of people like this. Now the type of people who fit this criteria may vary, but the one thing that they share in common is that a gun "empowers" them, whereas a firearm should only be used to protect against lethal force.

In my above story, Alan could have began firing as soon as he saw them as they threatened him with murder earlier. Still, he waited until some sort of assault was initiated. Why? Because he wasn't out there to kill these guys, but he wasn't out there to get killed either. He could have been a coward a started "speed shooting" as soon as he saw them. He also could have been so frightened by their claims that he could have gone looking for them once he was armed. But he didn't. He went about his business, until they came looking for him, and assaulted him.

Again, gun control is a pain in the ass for responsible civilians, but its necessary because there's no way to tell the difference between them and those who just need to feel empowered.

[J-Luck]

It is a personal assumption based on the rashness of an individuals choices. I wasn't saying anyone who gets scared of four guys would kill his girlfriend's new boyfriend. I am saying that anyone who can objectively look at those 2 situations without being in them and still come to the same cowardly decision that Goetz made, and it was cowardly, has a high probability of doing something equally as cowardly.

Another point that was made by you J-Luck, but overlooked was the fact that the story could have been skewed, as Goetz was the one giving the account of how things happened. How do we know that he didn't make some racist remark, or get into a staring match with these guy? It could have been just a case of them busting his balls, but before anyone did anything, or even made an attempt to do anything, he shot them. And on top of that he stated that he didn't think that they were armed at any point. If you don't think that you're up against weapons, but you still speed shoot 4 people before they ever touch you or even reach for what may appear to be a weapon, you are cowardly. I remember when this incident happened here in NY. And it wasn't as cut and dry as Wikpedia made it seem.

IMO, it didn't even have to be 4 people, just a guy who was much bigger than him dressed like a urban person(leather jacket, boots, jeans, skullcap) and I believe he would have shot him too even if he believed him to be unarmed. Which goes right back to my comment about the girlfriend. If a guy feels empowered by a gun, his personality will be what some like to call "enhanced". In other words, he'll be walking around feeling like he's got a new found confidence. If he saw his girl that dumped him and won't return his calls, and he's angry about it and feels that she might have been involved with the guy during their relationship, then IMO I feel he has the right personality type to approach and start and altercation. And if the guy started kicking his ass, I believe that type of guy would pull out instead of fighting. Now that's my opinion, but I've known a lot of people like this. Now the type of people who fit this criteria may vary, but the one thing that they share in common is that a gun "empowers" them, whereas a firearm should only be used to protect against lethal force.

In my above story, Alan could have began firing as soon as he saw them as they threatened him with murder earlier. Still, he waited until some sort of assault was initiated. Why? Because he wasn't out there to kill these guys, but he wasn't out there to get killed either. He could have been a coward a started "speed shooting" as soon as he saw them. He also could have been so frightened by their claims that he could have gone looking for them once he was armed. But he didn't. He went about his business, until they came looking for him, and assaulted him.

Again, gun control is a pain in the ass for responsible civilians, but its necessary because there's no way to tell the difference between them and those who just need to feel empowered.

Alot of what you say makes sense, except that he had no prior record. If he had felt empowered as you said, he certainly would have done something to someone during the course of his life before this incident. And urban wear is not a leather jacket... at least that I know... and I live in the hood lol. I was thinkin du rag, tall tee, baggy jeans, and forces . Good post though.

[Uke]

Alot of what you say makes sense, except that he had no prior record. If he had felt empowered as you said, he certainly would have done something to someone during the course of his life before this incident. And urban wear is not a leather jacket... at least that I know... and I live in the hood lol. I was thinkin du rag, tall tee, baggy jeans, and forces . Good post though.

Why would he have done something earlier? Carrying a gun in NY is illegal unless you are law enforcement. Once he got mugged those last 2 times, he decided that the next time he was even in a situation that resembled the last 2 he wasn't going to be pushed around again. He DID state that he didn't think that they were carrying weapons this time. Which means that even though in his mind the threat of death was not there, he wasn't about to let four strangers victimize him yet again. Carrying that pistol empowered him to feel as though he could take charge of his life and fate. Without it, he would have simply handed over his wallet, if that's even what they were asking for.

In this context when I suggest that someone is empowered, I am saying that he feels as though might is right. He may seem rational, but his limits of reason and tolerance are affected by his newly found sense of confidence and/or security. In a situation where most rational people would let it go, an empowered psych looks to escalate a situation to prove to themselves that they no longer are victims and are not afraid. You can see this all the time from woman who have been raped or mugged, and have gone on to learn self defense and/or firearm training. Many of them have altercations afterward, and from having personal experience with them and the attitude that they aquire from rape prevention methods, they are empowered and almost feel the need to defend themselves, even when not being attacked. Its no different for men who are mugged and go out and buy a pistol for so-called protection. They are, for the most part, waiting for something to happen to prove to themselves that they are not victims. Evidence of what I'm saying is in the article that started this debate:

Goetz told police that he thought from the smile on Canty's face that they wanted to "play with me," and he decided on a "pattern of fire" that he would use to shoot them. Goetz, pretending not to hear them, asked Canty "What did you say?" Canty calmly repeated, "Give me five dollars." Goetz admitted to police that he "snapped" and that his intention at that point was to "murder them, to hurt them, to make them suffer as much as possible."

If Goetz was truly just trying to defend himself, he would have warned them before he shot. He also could have tried to walk away before they crowded around him. He chose to stay right where he was because, in his own words, he wanted to "murder them, to hurt them, to make them suffer as much as possible." If you don't realize that he was experiencing a rush from feeling empowered after that statement, then you just don't want to know. And as if that wasn't enough, after the shooting this is what took place:

Goetz then immeadiately looked at the first two men to make sure they were "taken care of." Goetz then saw Cabey moving on the bench and confessed to approaching Cabey and saying, "You don't look too bad, here's another," and then attempting to shoot Cabey again in the stomach, with an empty gun. Cabey, who was briefly standing prior to the shooting, was sitting on the subway seat during all attempted shots. In his subsequent police statement, Goetz explained, "if I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again."

Nuff said