Ultimate self defence

[Redrooster]

Ive been doing alot of research in trying to determine what would be the best way to train for a real encounter with bare knuckles. Ive seen alot of threads debating one style vs another, particularly Muay Thai vs Wing Chun
(Thai Bri, you need to stop holding back man-just let it out ) .

Ultimatley theres alot to consider, for example Ive not seen in any of these discussions state the type of opponent involved. From that stand point I do think something like Wing Chun or even TKD could be of value against an untrained opponent. However against a western boxer or muay thai fighter, well perhaps duck and cover might not be bad. In fairness to wing chun I do believe it to be the best Chinese fighting art and does have some admirable ideas and techniques but in a real bare knuckle fight Yang Rules.

While doing my research Ive watched hours and hours of bare knuckle fights with varying levels of fighters. What Ive learned should be self evident but apparently is not. Fights in the real world are won definitevly by techniques that are:

1. Simple

2. Fast

3. Devastating

Some example techniques would be:


1. Head butt. King of the street perhaps. One will make a bloody mess and stop the fight, successive head butts will put anyone down. Also a great defensive tool, block a bare fist with the top of your head and you break that fist, a great Irish gypsy trick.

2. Elbows. Same story, devastating. Opens cuts up instantly and stops fights.

3. Knees. Breaks ribs, noses etc...

4. Muay Thai rear kicks. Powerful and fast, used on the knee or even thigh its extraordinary, deserving the knickname of "The baseball bat".

5. Fists. With proper execution- body weight behind the blow, straight rights and hooks can end fights easily. We all have seen this but the cultivation of punching power via proper technique isnt really taught to as much as it should be. The jab for instance has turned into as measuring tool and defensive option. With the application of a verticle fist jab or jolt as Jack Dempsey called it, knuckle fights can be won with well placed jabs alone.A good jab will cut open a face and puff it up to the point of non recognotion if used properly.


Thai fighters use alot of these techniques in the ring, and in my mind I think they are clearly the best of the asian fighters, particularly if the encounter were to be bare knuckle.

I think what Bruce Lee taught as JKD has merit but as far as intercepting a fist as he prescribes well..... He could do it Im certain, but I dont have all day, every day to train. Not to mention Im 42 and that just aint happenin'.

Watching real fights is fascinating and changes your perceptions somewhat as to what is truly "doable". Bareknuckles is not the same as gloved fighting alot less daring do with experienced fighters.

In case your wondering Ive been watching bare knuckle fighters from all corners of the globe, Irish gypsy fighters who traditions go way way back to muay thai and burmese fighters. Very different rules and ways of looking at fights but with the same underlying themes.

I have a number these dvds, pm me if you want to trade, bare knuckle stand up fights only please.

This is my first post here, I think I would stirred the pot more posting on the WC board but hey.....


Redrooster

[Little Apple]

Have said it before, will say it again: For strait up self defence, MMA (Mixed Martial Arts)

[Thai Bri]

Hi mate,

I'm 42 also!

Theres a lot more to winning a fight than the techniques you use, though they are relevant.

Research "The FencE by Geoff Thompson. This is especially important for real fights. Remember, all sporting encounters, and most martial arts training, involves someone saying "Begin!" before the sparring.fighting starts. Not so in a real fight.

I think you've come to some wise conclusions re the types of blow to train. Forget anything fancy. It only works in the dojo and on film. I'd also recommend that you research open handed blows, as punching someones skull accidentally is going to break your hand.

I do not think TKD (as it is most commonly taught) and WC will help against an untrained guy. I would even say that many styles make people into LESS effective fighters than if they never went to any classes. Why? Becuase they learn how to fight someone in a smilar style to their own in too safe an environment. When they go up against a ferocious lunatic they are out of their depth. At least an untrained guy can go mental also, instead of concentrating on his flicky kicks or pitter patter punching.

Good luck fellow elderly person.........

[darrianation]

Ultimate self defense?

I am sure folks get tired of me saying this...

But their is a difference between fighting and self-defense. Fighting---you choose to fight. Self-defense the other guy chooses. When the other guy chooses he gets to choose how the fight goes down. If he chooses weapons or if he is the 6’4 power lifter your fist fighting techniques in all likelihood will not be enough.

If you are using those techniques you mentioned above (those are certainly robust) so, you can gain access to a weapon then maybe you have a chance.

[BoarSpear]

Have said it before, will say it again: For strait up self defence, MMA (Mixed Martial Arts)

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[chalambok]

I personally think MMA (read grappling/wrestling) are highly overrated as self-defense arts. Sure, you should know how to get out of a mount, and perhaps how to throw someone. But what are you going to do on the street, put someone into a 'submission' hold until a cop drives by? Or perhaps you are going to take the chance of going into court against an expert witness who will take the position if you actually knew your MMA you wouldn't have had to break that bone. Take a good standup art, boxing or muay Thai, and spend a little time grappling. Believe me, the first time you go to the ground with your head up against a car rim or pound your opponent's head into a curb you will think the way I do. Accidental homicide is still manslaughter in the best of situations. Against multiple opponents, MMA are as effective as a milk carton full of water against a forest fire. Stick and move will keep you alive, capable of running away, and in position to isolate your opponents.

[Little Apple]

Forgive me, but perhapse we are talking about different things. The MMA I learned goes something like: "Now this isn't something you'd do in a match, but this is a great place to rip off the ear...see, and then you slam the head into the floor, and after you've clocked the sucker in the neck (only if you're serious of course) you are...here, and then you're set...Of course if he has a budy you do this instead, and he's at least out of the way for a sec while you deal with the other guy."

Now, of course I'm talking about fighting. I'm small, so the best self deffence is pre-emptive thinking in my case, i.e. don't be in the dark alley at night. I don't really want to fight one guy I don't know, let alone all his friends. If I'm in a situation where I ned to deffend myself with force, I've probably failed to take responsibility for my safety from the begining.

[treelizard]

4. Muay Thai rear kicks. Powerful and fast, used on the knee or even thigh its extraordinary, deserving the knickname of "The baseball bat".

I've heard Thai boxers tell people not to use kicks on the street unless they've trained them for three or four years. Anybody heard that? Anybody understand the reasoning? (Esp. if anyone has real life experience...)

[bigred389]

I've heard Thai boxers tell people not to use kicks on the street unless they've trained them for three or four years. Anybody heard that? Anybody understand the reasoning? (Esp. if anyone has real life experience...)

I think you should ask the person who told you that for the exact reasoning behind the "three to four years" part...that's obviously some arbitrary standard we can't possibly fathom without knowing the person...IMO.

But it seems odd...I would think after some good ring/sparring experience when you understand both how to throw the kicks as well as what they tend to do to your targets, you're good to go.

[treelizard]

Yeah, sorry, I've heard two people say it and the first I didn't ask about it b/c he wasn't talking directly to me, and the second, well, I was too out of breathe. lol

I suppose three or four years probably means how long someone thinks it would take to instill really solid muscle memory. But I'm wondering what exactly it is about a kick that you would need better muscle memory for than a punch, knee or elbow... It's not like it's a fine motor function...

Okay so if anybody reading this has tried and failed to deliver good solid kicks in a street situation, please post! Or send me a PM...

[jubaji]

Take a good standup art, boxing or muay Thai, and spend a little time grappling. Believe me, the first time you go to the ground with your head up against a car rim or pound your opponent's head into a curb you will think the way I do.

You mean after they have had their head broken they will think like you? Only then.

Yeah, experiencing yourself in an unfavorable situation because you have no grappling will convince you that you only need "a little time" on that.

[sportmuaythai]

"Now, of course I'm talking about fighting. I'm small, so the best self deffence is pre-emptive thinking in my case, i.e. don't be in the dark alley at night. I don't really want to fight one guy I don't know, let alone all his friends. If I'm in a situation where I need to deffend myself with force, I've probably failed to take responsibility for my safety from the begining."

Well spoken. Caution can prevent mugging most of the time. I'm always of opinion that it's better to prevent confrontation, and to leave room for the other person to exit gracefully. It's also more gratifying to walk away from opposing person who you know you could beat the heck out off. In closing, I'd like to give my opinion that striking martial art could be your best defence. You'll know the striking range, and can keep safe distance while engaging in settling conversion. I see many people try to baloon up, hoping to intimidate their adversary. Often, they get hit by surprise.

[treelizard]

Little Apple, from one tiny girl who generally wears pretty colors to another, weapons are a really great equalizer. Even just throwing a vase at the guy bigger than you before you try to test out your MMA skills in a zero sum situation. Just a thought.

[gabbah]

I think you should ask the person who told you that for the exact reasoning behind the "three to four years" part...that's obviously some arbitrary standard we can't possibly fathom without knowing the person...IMO.

But it seems odd...I would think after some good ring/sparring experience when you understand both how to throw the kicks as well as what they tend to do to your targets, you're good to go.

I would agree that you need at least about 2-3 years training with sparring before you can actually use kicks effectively. Because it's so much more than just throwing the kick. It's a lot about learning to "read" your opponents balance and what he will do next. For instance, don't kick if he seems to want to take you down. Of course you will also need to develop power, and getting REALLY used to the technique you learned. Otherwise when you're in that heated situation your kick will become half-assed, so it might just put you out of balance and he may take you down, and for that you only gave him a light charly horse that he won't even feel during the fight with all the adrenaline.
That is why I don't think kicks are effective enough (they can be, but then you have to put in a lot of time!).

The thing is, when you have spent all that time sparring, I think you will be far more effective in a fight, using punching, elbows and knees only (with clinch). Your footwork and distance control will be superior, and that is a very important thing. You have learned to land your punches with straight arms, body rotation and shoulder forward, giving you maximum reach (probably more than any untrained fighter that is not a lot taller than you). So you will probably be the one landing the first strikes in a fight, which puts him at a defensive mode.
Oh well I'll stop my ramble now.

[Thai Bri]

Your best bet is to hit the guy in the head, with your hand or your elbow. ONly kick if that option isn't available, and be sure to switch back to plan A as sure as it becomes available again.