advantage over grapplers

[J-Luck]

In a situation where you are fighting for your life, you're going to have a lot less control of someone, because you'll be stimulated on adrenaline, which makes your muscles loose. Plus, there's the chance they'll be bigger, stonger, meaner or more drug-fucked then you. Then what? You can't expect to be able to controll someone's every movement when they are resisting with all their strength, fighting back, swinging punches and kicks into your face and gut, that's foolish. Fighting is a series of events with a near infinite number of variables, you can't possibly go into a fight saying "Yeah, I'll get him into a quick arm bar on his opening punch, throw him down onto that broken bottle, and finish up by tying him up on the ground and smashing his face into that nice fire-hydrant, yup, that'll just about do me" If you expect something as random and unpredictable as a fight to turn out exactly the way you want, then you're grossly misinformed and you're likely to end up eating a pavement sandwich one day.



The thing is, people do this. You can't make the argument that everyone knows better, or that everyone knows the difference between whats doable in the ring and what doesn't work in the street. They truly think that the ground is the best place to fight. The unfortunate thing is that they don't realise what a bad mistake going to the ground intentionally is, and they're spreading this philosophy of going to ground to people who don't know any better. It's just not a viable combat option. If you're taken there, fine, great, do some damage and get the hell back up, because concrete doesn't quite feel the same as a soft mat when your face is being ground to mincemeat on it.




Oh, I never said that these things weren't an issue when standing, only that they're less of a concern. If you are proficient with a multiple attacker oriented MA, such as Penjat Silat, you'll be able to handle more then one person fairly effectively from the standing position, and as Uke said, you'll have options, improvised weapons, hidden weapons, running, etc.

On the ground, you have none of this. I'm not saying that all practicioners of ground arts act like it's the be-all, end-all of fighting, but it seems like most people get a false idea of it's effectiveness in a more violent, less controlled situation.

1. Sounds like a stupid assumption to me. I thought we train 100% in order to get results when we have an opponent resisting at 100%. Also... this punching, kicking, grappling fight sounds alot like MMA... and I'm sure there are many many people prepared for that .

2. The ground is a great place to temporarily go. All fights should be made to be fought dynamically. A double leg slam(with him over your shoulders) can kill a man. I remember reading a CNN article about a cop who was a judo black belt and a collegiate wrestler(at least before he became a cop, I'm not sure if he still trained, but those were his credentials). He ended up in a situation while patrolling a bar, confronted one of the guys(there were all larger than him) and while confronting the first guy, someone ran behind him and tried muckling him to the ground. He quickly him tossed the guy in the air, sending him to the pavement with a detached spine(detached from neck to back). The guy he was originally confronting rushed him and tried to punch him with brass knuckles. He ducked under with a double leg, landed with the guy on the bottom hard, and broke 5 ribs on the side he landed on and and the arm and wrist on that side. One more guy started screaming at the cop and ran at him, throwing a rock. The rock hit him and as the guy rushed him, they both went to the ground. The cop quickly(after gaining his senses again) took his back and choked him out(the cop was interviewed, in case your wondering how i knew specifically what he did) in seconds. I mean... that sounds like a dynamic grappling solution. Grappling can work wonders. And as far as groundfighting goes, if im on top in side control or mount, Ill end the fight REALLY fast, especially against someone who doesn't know how to stop a keylock,armbar, or if im in a mount, maybe if they have an iron face and can take infinite amounts of striking from that position.

Mincemeat eh? See, I plan on taking them there, and getting up quick... in fact... within 5 seconds... after striking them bloody and leaving them with something nice and broken... that is AFTER i've broken them down with a takedown/throw. Unless they're a better grappler, you can't assume that I'll be taken there.

3. Grappling is not strictly limited to groundfighting... why does everyone assume this? There is a whole range of fighting, half of which is encompased by standup grappling. I would hold (and have done it) someone as a shield in a choke while checking out my other options and trying to time things out.

[J-Luck]

I want to make sure I understand this right. You are saying that grappling is such a good art that you can disarm a knife wielding opponent with only grappling skills, and maybe on an off chance be cut superficially?

I'm serious that's how I read that please correct me J-Luck I really want to make sure I didn't misinterpret that.

No, if you took that from my statement you're whole heartedly taking it out of context. I merely said I'd take my chances there. This was the debate right?

But, to let you know exactly where im coming from, I alway have a knife and some knucks on me. Just nice,cheap insurance.

[kingoftheforest]

No, if you took that from my statement you're whole heartedly taking it out of context. I merely said I'd take my chances there. This was the debate right?.

Just wondering.

[Garland]

garland again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QdjGxx9mW8

shake dat azz boy

LOL

Hips don't lie, motherfucker.

[stabbychick]

hey look, it's EmptyneSs's girlfriend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmukSndM-mE&search=orgazmo

AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! MY EYES!!! NOOOOOOO!!!

Don't look..... seriously.

[stabbychick]

Speaking of which; "proof" of Darwin's theory of evolution...so like us they are
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_JWp...earch=wildboyz

I think these guys are trying to reverse the evolutionary process. They're getting there, at least.

[stabbychick]

garland again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QdjGxx9mW8

shake dat azz boy

LOL

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAhahahahahahaha!

That's disturbing... disturbingly funny. ROTFLMAO!!... and I'm not sure why...

[jubaji]

here comes another hissy-fit

There's another assumption at work here, too. This one usually comes from the people who hate BJJ or the Gracies and see no value in MMA, but they by no means have exclusive rights to this misconception.

It seems that every time someone gets critical of "grappling" they are talking about ring sport. Grappling is just a range, and there are far more tools in that range that are street-practical than there are tools for ring use. What's more, most submission fighting techniques can be taken to a degree at which they become truly "life altering" for an opponent on the street. I too have used an opponent in a choke as a shield. I've used arm bars to break a guys elbow, and another one to break a shoulder. Those fights were over in a major hurry. I watched a fellow bouncer choke a guy out and then drag his unconcious body over to the curb in preparation for a good curb-stomp, but we luckily got to him in time to stop that from happening. I've thrown a guy onto the sidewalk and knocked him out cold, and I've been able to pull off some stuff from inside a person's guard that I'm a little ashamed to even talk about. Suffice it to say, they got me back to my feet, and he stayed where he was. I applied a wristlock on a combative psychopath while working at the hospital and folded his hand over til it was flat against his forearm. it shattered, and while that alone didn't stop him (he was clinically psychopathic), it did keep him from making a functional fist or trying to grab the nurse he had assaulted, and it allowed me to get him under control. Except for maybe the wrist lock, those are all tools your average sport jiujitsu guys use in the ring.

Like I've said before (and like a lot of people a whole lot smarter than me have said before that): If you train to be an athlete, you'll be an athlete. If you train to fight, you'll be able to fight. But if you train to be an athletic fighter, you'll have a leg up on most. You'll have a level of competitive drive (a "will to win" so to speak), conditioning, and mental focus that's simply missing in many "fighters." By the same token, if you leave out the fight aspects of the game and hope that sheer athleticism will carry the day, you're likely to run into problems as well.

Oh, that exceptionally well crafted statement is sure to drive a certain faction into a tizzy!

[kuk sool won]

1. Sounds like a stupid assumption to me. I thought we train 100% in order to get results when we have an opponent resisting at 100%. Also... this punching, kicking, grappling fight sounds alot like MMA... and I'm sure there are many many people prepared for that .

2. The ground is a great place to temporarily go. All fights should be made to be fought dynamically. A double leg slam(with him over your shoulders) can kill a man. I remember reading a CNN article about a cop who was a judo black belt and a collegiate wrestler(at least before he became a cop, I'm not sure if he still trained, but those were his credentials). He ended up in a situation while patrolling a bar, confronted one of the guys(there were all larger than him) and while confronting the first guy, someone ran behind him and tried muckling him to the ground. He quickly him tossed the guy in the air, sending him to the pavement with a detached spine(detached from neck to back). The guy he was originally confronting rushed him and tried to punch him with brass knuckles. He ducked under with a double leg, landed with the guy on the bottom hard, and broke 5 ribs on the side he landed on and and the arm and wrist on that side. One more guy started screaming at the cop and ran at him, throwing a rock. The rock hit him and as the guy rushed him, they both went to the ground. The cop quickly(after gaining his senses again) took his back and choked him out(the cop was interviewed, in case your wondering how i knew specifically what he did) in seconds. I mean... that sounds like a dynamic grappling solution. Grappling can work wonders. And as far as groundfighting goes, if im on top in side control or mount, Ill end the fight REALLY fast, especially against someone who doesn't know how to stop a keylock,armbar, or if im in a mount, maybe if they have an iron face and can take infinite amounts of striking from that position.

Mincemeat eh? See, I plan on taking them there, and getting up quick... in fact... within 5 seconds... after striking them bloody and leaving them with something nice and broken... that is AFTER i've broken them down with a takedown/throw. Unless they're a better grappler, you can't assume that I'll be taken there.

3. Grappling is not strictly limited to groundfighting... why does everyone assume this? There is a whole range of fighting, half of which is encompased by standup grappling. I would hold (and have done it) someone as a shield in a choke while checking out my other options and trying to time things out.

I like how they attacked him one at a time.

Sorry but for SD i would try to stay on my feet EVERYTIME. As soon as you go to the ground you risk extreme exposure to surroundings, inproper technique i.e. not complete the technique thoroughly so that you remain with the advantage or fall incorrectly (maybe resulting in a 'detached spine' or breaking '5 ribs'). And of course, when you have thrown your opponent and are getting up within 5 seconds the rest of the yobs are going to be waiting patiently for you to get up to then attack... its not WWE you know.

I know there are lots of way that grappling can help you with in a self defense situation but i would prefere to be an extremely good striker than an ok grapper and striker or an extremely good grappler. I'd also prefere to be extremely fast, seeing as i am thats always my first option. Especially being confronted by these unforgiving, life taking thugs we all meet on the street twice a day.

Just out of interest Mike whats your job?

[kingoftheforest]

Imho

I'll agree if you train like an atheletic fighter it may help.

But IMHO if you train that every street altercationis life or death it helps. First if every street altercation is life o death, then people who verbaly assault you or your friends, wife, gf ect, won't constitute a fight. If yu see evry altecation as possibly fatal then you train yourself to avoid such non-sense when neccessary. You don't really want to kill anyone if it comes to that. And with that same token you don't want to be killed. So when you go out be alert be ready and trai that if you get into a fight you may not come home, or somebody else may not. That way it better be worth it to fight.

[J-Luck]

I like how they attacked him one at a time.

Sorry but for SD i would try to stay on my feet EVERYTIME. As soon as you go to the ground you risk extreme exposure to surroundings, inproper technique i.e. not complete the technique thoroughly so that you remain with the advantage or fall incorrectly (maybe resulting in a 'detached spine' or breaking '5 ribs'). And of course, when you have thrown your opponent and are getting up within 5 seconds the rest of the yobs are going to be waiting patiently for you to get up to then attack... its not WWE you know.

I know there are lots of way that grappling can help you with in a self defense situation but i would prefere to be an extremely good striker than an ok grapper and striker or an extremely good grappler. I'd also prefere to be extremely fast, seeing as i am thats always my first option. Especially being confronted by these unforgiving, life taking thugs we all meet on the street twice a day.

Just out of interest Mike whats your job?

1. Funny... I don't remember saying they attacked him one at a time... Maybe you just assumed...

I said it was dynamic... in case you didn't know, a dynamic move is one that happens quickly by nature. It's began and is ended within a second or two... a good hip toss from a guy rushing you from behing(hes got his momentum in it) will take the better part of 2 seconds, if you're slow. They didn't attack in unison, but remember, attacking someone by yourself is easier than in a group(the group confusion factor they teach in karate.) So this point has no relevance.

2. Ummm... a hip toss puts them on the ground with the detached spine... you remain fully standing... maybe you should learn techniques before speaking on them... also a double leg slam requires VERY little time on the ground at all.

I admit he went to the ground with the SECOND GUY, but he retained control(easier on the ground than standing up contrary to what you say), and choked him out. Say what you want, but it was a real life situation, he defended himself against a guy with a weapon, and one without. What more do you want? It was realistic... 100% so, becuase, if for nothing else... IT HAPPENED.

3. I'd go on the ground in a fight, and have. WITH MULTIPLE PEOPLE... depends on the situation, ya know? If I double leg slam(I'm saying finishing the double over the shoulder, not as a takedown) someone, I'm going to hop up into mount and break his face, or sidecontrol and break his arm... all of this will take place within 5 seconds, maybe less.

4. I didn't really understand your last point... maybe you could reword it? But I would rather be a talented striker and grappler lol... I'd rather be well rounded. I was just pointing out that anti-grappling and bjj and wrestling being impractical in a fight are just false. Their made up by people who have obviously never been in a fight.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I am a boxer who plans on going pro someday, and I also kickbox, and have done some kenpo... I by no means hate striking, I love the science and art of striking. I just think grappling is as effective as striking... maybe more so.

[J-Luck]

Lol who's the dumbass who neg repped me sayin knucks are illegal? Obviously not a big poster... only brought me down one point. But, anyway, leave your name dumbass... don't neg rep anonymously... it's pretty tough to be a bitch over a computer, but you seem to have accomplished it.

[jubaji]

And jubaji, it wasn't meant to rekindle any arguments. Just like the first time around, it's my own personal opinion and experience - regardless of whether or not anyone agrees.

Oh, I know it wasn't meant to, but certain people seem to be hyper-sensitive to imagined threats to their view of the world.

[Uke]

The value of ground grappling in SD is to learn to escape the guard/mount positions, reverse submissions and chokes and learn the fastest way to get to your feet. Nothing passed that. If someone here feels that ground grappling has any additional worth passed those points, please post the value!

Now, all of a sudden while we are discussing physical techniques, avoidance has become the cliché of the day?!?!? But what happens when your job mandates that you are in a position that you must be in harms way? Security agents, bouncers, correction officers, police officers, etc. All these professionals face violence, and the majority of the time they do not initiate it. What about mugging and rape victims? Have we begun pretending that they don't exist too?? If you think you're going to avoid being a victim once you've been accosted by someone armed and intent on taking what you have by simply saying "I don't want any trouble", then you're stupid. I'm not going to even sugar coat it.

And anyone who advocates going to the ground(99% of the TOP GROUND GRAPPLERS WIND UP THERE BY CHOICE) in a SD/UC situation where weapons are almost always present either overvalues their ground grappling training, or their instructor trained them as a part of some elaborate practical joke. Don't try to lump judo throws and sweeps into newaza. They're not the same range, but they're found in the same art. What Mike Swain does is totally different than what Royce Gracie does.

And while ground grappling may be a range, its applications in SD are only used to escape that particular range. The examples Mike gave of throwing and arm-barring people were just as controlled as NHB events, because if you are a bouncer(and I was for years) you have the support from the other bouncers. You weren't worried or concerned about multiple attackers because you were fighting Gracie style, with an entourage of bouncers watching your back. And 9 times out of 10 if you working in a club or a bar, the guy you're fighting has been drinking and is inebriated. Few sober men will attack a bouncer when he knows the other bouncers will beat him unmercifully for it.

And what's an "athletic fighter"? Is that some new buzzword for an MMA fighter who is supposedly trained for reality? Either you train for street tactics or you don't. Like it was stated, if you train for sports, you'll fight like it while adhering to the rules you've been conditioned by so that you don't get disqualified. I've seen fighters second guess themselves because they weren't certain about the rules of the tournament that they were competing in. They weren't sure if this one allowed knee strikes to the head. None allow groin strikes. Some don't allow striking while an opponent is down. These athletes embed these rules into their psyche to participate. But all of a sudden when real danger is near, all that conditioning is supposed to disappear because they've developed an athletic "off switch"? That's nonsense. We've already agreed that you'll fight like you've trained. So to now try to amend that point is an exercise in futility.

And yes, grappling is a range and I am not just discussing the sport aspect. But what I am discussing is the fact that this debate is and always was about GROUND GRAPPLING AND ITS APPLICATION IN SELF DEFENSE. Not "grappling" ... GROUND GRAPPLING. And the question that was posed by KOTF was what is grappling defense in the context that we are discussing it? Which is GROUND GRAPPLING! So you mean to tell me that EVERYONE here didn't know we were speaking about GROUND GRAPPLING DEFENSE? And if they did, can someone finally explain to me the aspects of ground grappling that apply to SD outside of learning how to escape the guard/mount positions, reverse chokes and submissions and getting to your feet fast? Because as of yet I have not seen anyone, and I mean anyone produce one SD application of ground grappling other than those already established points.

Somewhere along the way in this debate, someone(I'm not mentioning any names) decided to blur the discussion at hand by generalizing the term "ground grappling" by referring to it as "grappling". That opened the flood gates for all types of bullsh!t that no one else here caught until now. Grappling has ALWAYS been apart of SD/UC, but it has always been executed on your feet where it is a part of CQC.

But the following quote illustrates my point best:

"The dissolution of the samurai class came about at the same time of the Fusen-ryu founding, and the banning of armed combat probably contributed heavily for its development and emphasis in unarmed combat techniques."

So you mean to tell me that one of the most renown group of warriors of all time didn't use newaza on the battlefield? And newaza ONLY became popular after people were forbidden to carry weapons? I WONDER WHY??? Could it be because people back then weren't ignorant enough to roll around on the ground when weapons were present? And since weapons are concealable nowadays, isn't it intelligent to assume that anyone you face is armed?

Or is MMA/ground grappling like a bulletproof shield too?

[jubaji]

The value of ground grappling in SD is to learn to escape the guard/mount positions, reverse submissions and chokes and learn the fastest way to get to your feet. Nothing passed that.

..............................................