Aliveness training: Is it the best way to train MA's?

[WildWest.]

I give Matt Thornton a ten.

Anyway, what about more controlled sparring, where you are responding to new situations and attackers, but getting faster over time until you are able to respond with full speed and power. I just think there's more ways to get there than competition styles (and competition styles have changed techniques to make them less lethal, of course).

I agree with you on this, although competition type training is a good way to condition yourself for reality. However, if you say you'd do dirty techniques in a real fight, but obviously don't train them when you are competition sparring due to the rules, then I don't believe you would do them. You have to train the mind to act that way as well as the body, by that I mean if you don't automatically try and poke someone in the eye while training, what makes you think you will do it when the adrenaline is flowing in a realy confrontation??

This is something I'm working on, controlled sparring over various ranges. For example, in Hapkido, we should learn a new technique in a "dead" way then, once you understand it (shouldn't take too long depending on individuals), begin applying it in a pressure environment. You can do this with escapes from grabs, bear hugs etc and also counters for punches, kicks, takedowns, ground fighting, 2 on 1 scenarios, defending yourself from a seated position....the list is almost endless. Once you've become competent in most of the drills then you can start with the random attack type drill/sparring where anything could be done to you by someone who resists your counter attack. You learn so much doing this as being put under pressure means you really see if your techniques can cut the mustard when done for "real".

I love this stuff as it keeps you so honest.

[glazik]

I'm into scenario based sparring. Like, you're sitting in a chair and somebody 'surprise' attacks you, not really a surprise as you're expecting it. Still, I find it something fun to do instead of just trading shots. Or you start with a verbal assault which leads into a fight, like what happens in a bar fight or wot not.

[treelizard]

I give Matt Thornton a ten.

Anyway, what about more controlled sparring, where you are responding to new situations and attackers, but getting faster over time until you are able to respond with full speed and power. I just think there's more ways to get there than competition styles (and competition styles have changed techniques to make them less lethal, of course).

[WildWest.]

The concept of using "aliveness" is nothing new to many MA's. Using RBSD/Combatives as an example, this was the only way they trained. IMO...it is only a term coined by Matt Thornton to describe his new findings and approach to training. Something a martial artist will do throughout his lifetime evolving. In other words, seeking for answers. He was one of the first if I recall in the JKD circuit to use this term to dispel the false sense of security many practitioners believed they were achieving through all the dead / pattern drills used. You will hear Burton Richardson say this clearly in one of his videos. And they are absolutely correct. The drills have limitations to real world use.

I agree with you. Aliveness is a new term for an old drill, it's all about marketing I suppose which is probably the reason I cottoned onto it and pushed for peoples opinions on it.

I like that type of training despite the real world limitations but when you say that you could argue that every training drill has real world limitations because nothing is like doing for real. But I believe you improve your techniques, reaction times etc by training as close as possible to reality in class. IMO it is better than dead drills when it comes to training for self defence. I have nothing aganist patterns as long as you realise they won't help you in a real fight.

[piousmaximus]

Hey, lookie here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...50760833041053

[WildWest.]

There seems to be some sort of technical problem with their website, hopefully they rectify it.

[piousmaximus]

Someone else just sent me this link today and I was totally blown away. I've forwarded it to all the martial artists I know.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/newbook.htm

If only they had this in Tucson

Good article, but doesn't really describe aliveness training, no?

That bullshido page ain't opening for me.

[johnj]

The concept of using "aliveness" is nothing new to many MA's. Using RBSD/Combatives as an example, this was the only way they trained. IMO...it is only a term coined by Matt Thornton to describe his new findings and approach to training. Something a martial artist will do throughout his lifetime evolving. In other words, seeking for answers. He was one of the first if I recall in the JKD circuit to use this term to dispel the false sense of security many practitioners believed they were achieving through all the dead / pattern drills used. You will hear Burton Richardson say this clearly in one of his videos. And they are absolutely correct. The drills have limitations to real world use.

[treelizard]

Wow, I just got a neg for this, which I think is fascinating, as I didn't even take a clear position. I'd love to hear why!! My line of thinking is just that I know a small handful of fighters who kick ass and have proven themselves both in the ring and on the street who still practice these "dead drills" and I don't see why they would do it if it didn't help them. On the other hand, maybe their success doesn't have as much to do with these drills as they think it does...

[treelizard]

I'm still not entirely convinced that some of the "dead" drills won't develop attributes that are necessary for your game or will teach you different things, but I have to think about it more.

I found this old thread on it: http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/s...ad.php?t=13014

[WildWest.]

Nice article TreeLizard. Interesting to see it was written by the same guy in the Bullshido article.

I think one of the reasons people don't like to train "alive" is that they are too scared to. Their instructor trained softly so they must train softly as well as though it's some sort of sacred heirachy that mustn't be tampered with. Have some balls and just do it!! This is how you learn properly. I also think some people have too much ego to protect and don't want to know what it's like to get hit/submitted etc. They live in a world of Martial Arts fantasy, have a fragile self image and don't understand it can be beneficial to get your pride knocked once in a while (in a safe manner).

I'm reminded of an incident occured at our Hapkido club a few years back. One of the new black belts was training with a friend of mine of a lower grade. My friend is a large chap (130kg) and bloody strong as well. They were doing wrist locks and the black belt told him not to grab him so tightly or resist so much as it's not how to train. My friend promptly replied "that's how someone would grab you for real, they aren't going to be nice about it". The black belt didn't like that very much and keep saying how it's done softer in training. This black belt now teaches his own class in another suburb and is a stickler towards traditional methods apparently. IMHO the black belt should have known by now how to apply that technique, or any, under resistance. This is piss poor instruction.

[WildWest.]

Thanks for your contribution Jeff5.

I like what you've said here and it reaffirms what I believe in and how to train/teach MA techniques. I plan to teach in a few years time and I want to incorporate a lot of aliveness training into my class. Starting off slow and carefully for beginners and building up into more harder, forceful resistance I think is the best way to effectively training your techniques and prepare your self for a fight of any sort. And I believe you can still do this by avoiding injury (as much as possible) and avoiding the "wild, aggressive" type and keep your composure and let yourself think about how to react (albeit very small reaction times!).

This brings me too my next question: Do you, or anyone else here, recommend training with the MMA type gloves?? What about body protectors like TKD fighters wear?? I don't mean so you can knock the shit out of each other but so you can practice a good controlled type of sparring/aliveness training yet still get some good contact so you know when you've been hit and at wha distance you need to be at to hit?

Finally who was the person who believes training the traditional way is the best?? Can you explain why you believe that as an explanation would be appreciated.

[treelizard]

Someone else just sent me this link today and I was totally blown away. I've forwarded it to all the martial artists I know.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/newbook.htm

If only they had this in Tucson

[jeff5]

I voted it rocks! And that's a really good article by Thornton.

I believe that all techniques need to be tested and trained on a resisting opponent. If they're not, you will most likely not be able to use them in combat.

However, we should not sacrifice technique and drill training for aliveness. Only after you have your technique down should you start training more alive with resistance. Once you start resistance training with a partner, it should be under the supervision of a good instructor who can correct any bad habits.

There has to be a progression too. Its what Thornton refers to as progressive resistance (others have used the same term in the past too), and I believe that's a really good term. You start off working with a totally willing partner, and then gradually ramp up and add varying levels of resistance until its almost 100%. Too often I've seen proponents of aliveness toss people into full bore alive training with very little technique or progressive resistance training. This can lead to very bad habits, and can actually get you seriously hurt in a real confrontation.

It also depends on your goals. If your goal is only to train for a limited amount of time and just learn street self defense, then maybe learning a few things well and not focusing so much on technique is okay.

If you plan to be a life long martial artist, or study for any length of time, there has to be a balance between techinque and aliveness. (or resistance traning, sparring, whatever you want to call it) I believe the path should be working technique first, then working with a partner with progressive levels of resistance.

[WildWest.]

Follow the link and read the article. What do people think of "Aliveness" training or is it a buzzword/training technique that will only last a little while before fazing out?

Personally I think it is the best way to effectively learn your MA in a safe realistic manner. But what do I know? What do others think?

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&id=252