Aliveness training: Is it the best way to train MA's?

[treelizard]

I don't want to speak for the guy, but after watching and reading some interviews it seems that his purpose for training has more to do with dissolving ego than RBSD...

[johnj]

when you say that you could argue that every training drill has real world limitations because nothing is like doing for real

Absolutely, there are way too many variables to mirror a real life altercation. However, you can emulate some of the elements i.e. unpredictability, aggression, resistance

I have nothing aganist patterns as long as you realize they won't help you in a real fight.

Everything we do has a base foundation and even patterns to go by. It is necessary for the beginner. As long as such drills are target specific and do not lose integrity because of too many variations, they are indeed essential.

You have to train the mind to act that way as well as the body, by that I mean if you don't automatically try and poke someone in the eye while training, what makes you think you will do it when the adrenaline is flowing in a realy confrontation??

Very well said! And this can only be done with both parties taking a role. In other words, in order to illicit the appropriate response(s), a level of intent must be behind each attack, counter etc. A mindset that will drive each party to act accordingly be it through reflex or reaction. If your partner gives you 10%, you will not respond with 100% intensity. And speed and power is not always necessary. Simple body mechanics and language will quite often suffice.

it seems that his purpose for training has more to do with dissolving ego than RBSD...

I don’t think it is about ego but merely a concept to enlighten those practitioners who develop a false sense of confidence by inducing adrenalin through a variety of means so that performance under stress will be further developed. This should also not be generalized as RBSD. I am certain MMA and sport players utilize some form of this training as an enhancement tool.

[treelizard]

I don’t think it is about ego but merely a concept to enlighten those practitioners who develop a false sense of confidence by inducing adrenalin through a variety of means so that performance under stress will be further developed. This should also not be generalized as RBSD. I am certain MMA and sport players utilize some form of this training as an enhancement tool.

Well, speaking about my impression of Mr. Thornton specifically, he talks a lot about how dead patterns lead down the negative spiral of fear/paranoia/etc. and alive training helps you be in the moment and deal with whatever is right in front of you, and is more healthy than learning a lot of drills to get a certification (etc...) He also seems like a spiritual person, and talks a lot about dissolving maya (illusion) and being in the moment, and how you can get that from any sports, but especially from combat sports (esp. for men) because there is so much ego involved when someone is trying to beat you up... So I'm speculating, but was trying to put two and two together.

Again, though, I don't know the guy. If I ever meet him, I'll ask him.

[Blue Wave Gym]

I'm not trying to bev mean but..........

This poll/topic should have a subtext of what people who don't know shit about ma training think about aliveness. Alivness as thourton practices it has been around along time for example an article by him bb mag 2002 or before and in practical ma utility it's allways been there in any gym that produces fighters. It's only when the rest of the band wagon crew "discovered it" that it became all the rage in rbsd and other circles.
The third option on the poll is such and indication of the complete b.s. that abounds in many tma's that I get pissed even seeing it up there. Sorry for the rant.

[WildWest.]

Well, I didn't post the poll to piss anyone off so I apolgise if I have. Thanks for your post though as you are entitled to your opinion and have the right to air it here :-)

[johnj]

he talks a lot about how dead patterns lead down the negative spiral of fear/paranoia/etc. alive training helps you be in the moment and deal with whatever is right in front of you, and is more healthy than learning a lot of drills to get a certification (etc...)

I've read only a few articles and seen a few tapes but he appears to be heading in the right direction when it comes to training whether FMA weaponry or E-H. As far as drills for certification, many use this strategy and some more than others. It is a money making tool. However, the student also has a responsibility to him/herself as well and can prevent being disillusioned by further diligence.

He also seems like a spiritual person, and talks a lot about dissolving maya (illusion) and being in the moment, and how you can get that from any sports, but especially from combat sports (esp. for men) because there is so much ego involved when someone is trying to beat you up... So I'm speculating, but was trying to put two and two together.

Makes sense...even the toughest SOB's can be humbled. And where does it all begin, in the training.

[johnj]

It's only when the rest of the band wagon crew "discovered it" that it became all the rage in rbsd and other circles.

Actually, the likes of Tony Blauer were utilizing all sorts of "aliveness" in the early 80's. And WWII H2H experts such as Carl Cestari don't know anything else but "aliveness". I would not put them among the band wagon crew but moreso, pioneers of this type of training. Of course, specific gyms/stables as you mentioned that produce fighters are prime examples as well.

[WildWest.]

Absolutely, there are way too many variables to mirror a real life altercation. However, you can emulate some of the elements i.e. unpredictability, aggression, resistance



Everything we do has a base foundation and even patterns to go by. It is necessary for the beginner. As long as such drills are target specific and do not lose integrity because of too many variations, they are indeed essential.



Very well said! And this can only be done with both parties taking a role. In other words, in order to illicit the appropriate response(s), a level of intent must be behind each attack, counter etc. A mindset that will drive each party to act accordingly be it through reflex or reaction. If your partner gives you 10%, you will not respond with 100% intensity. And speed and power is not always necessary. Simple body mechanics and language will quite often suffice.



I don’t think it is about ego but merely a concept to enlighten those practitioners who develop a false sense of confidence by inducing adrenalin through a variety of means so that performance under stress will be further developed. This should also not be generalized as RBSD. I am certain MMA and sport players utilize some form of this training as an enhancement tool.

I think we're both pretty much on the same wavelength here Johnj as I can't really read anything here that I wouldn't say or believe in myself. You've made some good points about aliveness training and I will apply them into my training.

Thanks for replying.

[WildWest.]

Actually, the likes of Tony Blauer were utilizing all sorts of "aliveness" in the early 80's. And WWII H2H experts such as Carl Cestari don't know anything else but "aliveness". I would not put them among the band wagon crew but moreso, pioneers of this type of training. Of course, specific gyms/stables as you mentioned that produce fighters are prime examples as well.

It's a good bandwagon to jump on anyway...I've jumped on!

[treelizard]

Thornton himself said in one of those interviews that it's been around for a long time and that wrestlers, Muay Thai guys, etc. will know what he's talking about.

[johnj]

It's a good bandwagon to jump on anyway...I've jumped on!

Absolutely, since my first experience within the circles of RBSD & Combatives I have not looked back. It has been an eye opener and compliments whatever arts you already study. Good luck!

[treelizard]

Absolutely, since my first experience within the circles of RBSD & Combatives I have not looked back. It has been an eye opener and compliments whatever arts you already study. Good luck!

Do you train alive in your RBSD/Combatives classes?

[iowabrawler]

i tell u what come and train here in iowa at mfs and u can foget about aliveness crap. doesnt get any more real than this!

[WildWest.]

What is mfs?

[johnj]

Do you train alive in your RBSD/Combatives classes?

First off, I do not use the term "aliveness" as it is simply a term. A fairly new one at that. My posts were merely to address the thread.

There are many variants to training the so-called "aliveness". And I credit it to my exposure and research of RBSD & Combatives. I simply refer to everything I do as having the proper mindset since it is what drives your actions. In terms of training methodologies, we use everything from simple dialogue to various adrenalin based simulations. Intent, aggression, resistance to name a few and most of all, plenty of contact are all part of it. This is the mindset I always encourage with my students. And it is this same manner that we train weapons.

BTW...you still training in Tacosa-Serrada eskrima?