Aliveness training: Is it the best way to train MA's?

[johnj]

tell u what come and train here in iowa at mfs and u can foget about aliveness crap. doesnt get any more real than this!

If you are referring to the Pat Miletich stable then yes that would be a great place if MMA is your forte or interest. He has produced some great fighters.

[iowabrawler]

melitech figthing systems

[Troll Virus]

Wow, I just got a neg for this, which I think is fascinating, as I didn't even take a clear position. I'd love to hear why!! ...

My guess would be Bullshydo/Thornton Nutriders.
The theories espoused by SBG stroke the egos of those who would far rather 'straight blast' anonymously on the internet, than square up to an old lady practicing Tai Chi in the park on a Sunday.

Alive/Aliveness is/are ridiculous.
You can't use either in a sentence in the intended sense.
Why invent words or these phrases, when existing words like reality/realism etc serve better, if not for self-grandisement?

It gives the illiterate 'know-it-alls' something new to cling to I suppose?

Thornton himself said in one of those interviews that it's been around for a long time and that wrestlers, Muay Thai guys, etc. will know what he's talking about.

So has every other fecker that's trained for more than a school vacation.
It's not worth discussing.

[iowabrawler]

if this so called aliveness training was reputable and effective as it claims, then it would have more reputable credit in the mma community. ive never heard of it til today. Why? probably because its nothing great, at least nothing that i can apply to my mma career. how many people have heard of accredited camps like, mfs, top team, lions den. right, they are recognized for a reason. aliveness training? lets keep it real and stick to the stuff that has been proven by the real mma camps and programs.

[WildWest.]

Iowabrawler

You already train with aliveness methods anyway when you spar at your MMA club. Do your training partners let you arm bar them or punch them in the face?? Of course not!! They resist which is aliveness training. Like I mentioned in a previous post, the term "aliveness" is just a new term for an old method of training that's been well marketed by Thornton. I was trying to promote discussion about it and various methods that people have tried, what drills they do, what they know about this type of training.

You say "lets keep it real"???....that's the whole point!!!

MMA clubs are not the only places to go for RBSD which is what I'm leaning towards here and primarily what I look for when I train.....in fact some would argue that MMA only prepares you according to a rules based environment (this argument is mostly bollocks). Personally I think good MMA/BJJ/MT training, and other styles which train in similar ways, will give you enough self defence techniques to help you in a fight. This is why I think all styles should train in this sort of way especially if they claim to teach self defence. The difference being that with a self defence style you can train, to a point, the dirty techniques such as eye gouging, groin striking, aiming strikes to the throat, small digit manipulation, neck cranks, hairpulling, etc etc etc. I know an MMA fighter may say to you, and they may be telling the truth, if they get into a street fight they would use those techniques anyway. And they may. But I believe when the shits hit the fan a lot of people wouldn't do them if they haven't trained them. That is the point of aliveness and definitely necessary if you want to train proper self defence.

I work in law enforcement, hence my preferences lean in slightly different ways from others and certainly yours, so I need to train restraining/locking/choking techniques on people who will resist. A lot of people train in styles such as JJJ, Aiki-jujitsu, Aikido, Hapkido, etc who learn a lot of good restraining techniques but only practise them with a compliant partner. Mate, you need a resisting partner to test the technique and you have to try and apply it under pressure, from different positions/angles/circumstances/scenarios. Absolutely MMA clubs will teach you how to react under these circumstances, but not all of us are MMA fighters or want to be. It isn't the ultimate self defence system (don't get me wrong it's bloody good), and I don't know what is, but it has its limitations like other styles do. Personally, for example, I only need to learn basic ground fighting techniques because the chances of me needing to take down a BJJ BB are incredibly slim to nil.....besides I'll have back-up in more cases than not anyway so my environment is different from yours.

I'm not taking a dig at MMA training because I have friends who train in it and am friends with an MMA instructor. I like a lot of the conditioning drills, the sparring, the bag and pad work, the GnP work, the wrestling etc. There is a lot of cross over and a lot of things which can easily be modified for RBSD. All I'm saying is that there is more to RBSD than just MMA camps and programs.

No offence to you, but if you believe that MMA is the only or primary style/training for self defence then you are probably not suited to Urban Street Combatives Forum and better off at the MMA/BJJ board where you can discuss your sport with others who do it also. You are also entitled to your opinion.

Thanks for contributing.

[treelizard]

My guess would be Bullshydo/Thornton Nutriders.
The theories espoused by SBG stroke the egos of those who would far rather 'straight blast' anonymously on the internet, than square up to an old lady practicing Tai Chi in the park on a Sunday.

Alive/Aliveness is/are ridiculous.
You can't use either in a sentence in the intended sense.
Why invent words or these phrases, when existing words like reality/realism etc serve better, if not for self-grandisement?

It gives the illiterate 'know-it-alls' something new to cling to I suppose?

So has every other fecker that's trained for more than a school vacation.
It's not worth discussing.

Actually, I find a lot less ego and negativity in the theories espoused by SBGi than in this post right here.

[treelizard]

if this so called aliveness training was reputable and effective as it claims, then it would have more reputable credit in the mma community. ive never heard of it til today. Why? probably because its nothing great, at least nothing that i can apply to my mma career. how many people have heard of accredited camps like, mfs, top team, lions den. right, they are recognized for a reason. aliveness training? lets keep it real and stick to the stuff that has been proven by the real mma camps and programs.

Now this post cracks me up.

[Troll Virus]

Actually, I find a lot less ego and negativity in the theories espoused by SBGi than in this post right here.

You can always find what you are looking for if you look hard enough sweetie.

(There you go, you can add 'patronising' to your list too)

[iowabrawler]

i think that u may be taking a deeper liking to "aliveness" simply because u use it in ur law inforcement practice. lets not assume that because there is no actual training in pulling hair, eye gouging, biting someone, that it means that an mma fighter cant do that. after all, thats very basic stuff we learn as grade school playground kids. so to come along and label that with a fancy name is just ridiculous. as far as locks, chokes, restraint techniques, we are constantly using them in mma. right thier called "submissions". sure they may not be in a particular scenario other than in the cage or ring, doesnt mean thats only when they will and can be put to use. i assure u that a trained mma fighter can handle himself pretty damn well in a "real life situation" outside of the ring. been there done that. all "aliveness" is a new fancy word for stuff that we already have. I think this labeling takes away from the original founders of these fine arts judo, karate, jiu jitsu, etc. by calling them something different. in a way its a cheap shot. if burger king took the main ingrident to mcdonald's big mac, and slaped it on one thier sandwiches would that be something new? NO! so if aliveness took all the skills from other arts and try to sell it off as stlye or method "aliveness" would that be new? NO! so why butcher the merits of all these arts by not calling them by thier founders names. this is just a cheap way to make a buck, and is aimed at certain demograpichs, towards people will buy into fancy marketing, and advertisment. if u feel that this is for u then more power to ya lad. i guess people wil always try something "new" or not "new" just to satisfy that insecurity. like i said if u feel its for u ,then its for u . thanks for ur participation.

[WildWest.]

Iowabrawler.

First of all I never said MMA fighters can't defend themselves on the street or would not resort to dirty tactics if in a fight outside of the cage/ring. Please re-read my previous post. What I am saying is that in order for some people to react to those techniques in reality, then they need to use them and practice them in class. I'm sure most, if not all, MMA fighters would use them in a street type fight....no argument there.

Yes I agree that the term "aliveness" is a buzz word if you like, for training drills that people have been doing for years and years. Again, no argument there. What I'm saying is that a lot of styles claim to teach self defence, but their students never spar, never resist their techniques, never are they put under pressure, never grapple etc etc. Unfortunately this is often McDojo shit that ruins good MA styles and gives us a bad name. And I also agree that by teaching their techniques under a different name and calling it something else is also shit and maybe Thornton has ulterior motives behind this (probably financial). However I do believe that aliveness (or whatever you want to call it) drills should be used in all MA's because I'm sure that type of training is what the original founders of the styles would have used in order to train their techniques. Unfortunately along the way people have over traditionalised them, resorted to teaching patterns, punching and kicking thin air, non-resistant grappling/sparring and basically taken out all the things that may cause injury in order to attract as many members as possible and make as much money as possible. Meanwhile the typically "harder" styles such as MT, boxing, wrestling, BJJ, and others didn't bother changing and consistently prove how effective they are in sport/combat competition.

While I don't know Thornton or his agenda, I'm, perhaps naiively, optimistic that he's simply trying to encourage other styles to train harder and start testing their techniques. And this can only be good for all MA's.

I don't think we disagree on much here, we just have different ways of saying it.

Thanks for replying.

[treelizard]

I guess the hard part in trying to figure this out for me is that I feel like I'm having to choose between two scenarios:
1. Getting lots of alive training, getting used to taking a hit, etc. and sparring hard in real time, which will help me on the street, BUT will also likely make me less lethal on the street because my muscle memory will be rules-based

2. Getting pretty lethal training which you can't spar with or things will start breaking, and not having the experience with it in real time

[WildWest.]

Iowabrawler,

Treelizard posted this earlier on but maybe you didn't see it. Watch it and you will see that you already train using aliveness as mentioned previously. Like I said, nothing new to some of us but it is to a lot of MAists.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053

[WildWest.]

I guess the hard part in trying to figure this out for me is that I feel like I'm having to choose between two scenarios:
1. Getting lots of alive training, getting used to taking a hit, etc. and sparring hard in real time, which will help me on the street, BUT will also likely make me less lethal on the street because my muscle memory will be rules-based

2. Getting pretty lethal training which you can't spar with or things will start breaking, and not having the experience with it in real time

I hear you Treelizard, but training rules based will still help you immensely on the street as you develop timing and sparring with an uncooperative opponent. Learning your distances, using the most appropriate/natural weapon at the correct range for that weapon is way more helpful than worrying about not adding the more lethal techniques.....besides how many life or death situations are you likely to get in anyway??

You can still train the more dirty stuff you just have to be more careful with it especially head manipulations and the like. I believe it's all about programming it into the system so you can bring it out if necessary. It's simply training the body to react that way. Have fun at training and learn learn learn.

Thanks for posting the Thornton clip too, I found it very interesting and helpful.

[treelizard]

I think it depends. I know of a cagefighter, a student of a friend's, who was stabbed in the leg during a street brawl. He was just pounding this guy's face in, as he was trained to do, and didn't even think the guy would have a knife. He could've been killed, the dude missed his femoral artery by mere inches.

You're right--I'm not likely to get myself in this situation. I'm more likely to need to develop shock resistance from getting hit than this guy is, who could use some weapon awareness. So I think it depends on the individual.

Have you seen The Reality vs. The Cage article?

[Sagacious Lu]

I think it's funny that some people feel threatened just by the word "aliveness". It's just a term that's used to refer to realistic, effective training methods. Any style or school can train with "aliveness" so I don't see why it would bother anyone. It's useful because it gives us a way to describe training that incorporates sparring against resistance. Not all MA schools do this so it helps to have to have a term for those that do.

My guess would be Bullshydo/Thornton Nutriders.
The theories espoused by SBG stroke the egos of those who would far rather 'straight blast' anonymously on the internet, than square up to an old lady practicing Tai Chi in the park on a Sunday.

Alive/Aliveness is/are ridiculous.
You can't use either in a sentence in the intended sense.
Why invent words or these phrases, when existing words like reality/realism etc serve better, if not for self-grandisement?

It gives the illiterate 'know-it-alls' something new to cling to I suppose?

Wow, you sound incredibly insecure. What about Matt Thornton and the SBG bothers you so much? As near as I can tell they're just a bunch of guys that train hard and have become successful as a result. There's nothing wrong with that. Do you have a legitimate complaint with them or are you just jealous of how successful they are? For that matter why bring up Bullshido? You've brought it up just to bash the site on here before. I really don't understand why it's so important to you that you would bring it up just to disparage it. It sounds like you're just bitter because you got made fun of over there. Get over it man, it's just a web site. My guess is that for you to be this butt-hurt over the term aliveness you must never have trained with it; why else would a simple word bother you so much?