Aliveness training: Is it the best way to train MA's?

[johnj]

1. Getting lots of alive training, getting used to taking a hit, etc. and sparring hard in real time, which will help me on the street, BUT will also likely make me less lethal on the street because my muscle memory will be rules-based

Depends on the immediate limitations you put in your sparring sessions. Boxing, muay thai, and grappling or the MMA approach introduces you to the many ranges that can occur in a fight. So you are enhancing your "technical" preparedness by familiarizing yourself in these ranges of combat. Do not get fixated on the techniques but try and establish universal principles and strategies that maximize the capabilities of each technique when you spar in this manner.

There is a distinction that some people neglect to realize and that is general sparring is a one to one, face off and consent method which is totally different than situational sparring. Remember, a fight differs from a self-defense situation. As WildWest pointed out, you must program yourself, certain tools and elements into the sparring sessions or even format two types since the goals are different.

2. Getting pretty lethal training which you can't spar with or things will start breaking, and not having the experience with it in real time.

While some weapons and E-H methods would be considered more lethal than others, it still takes a person’s intent to make it lethal. To label the training as lethal would not be appropriate. To utilize methods that are less forgiving in situational sparring can still be done in real time. I define less forgiving as techniques that would have more immediate and damaging affects if applied in a situation but it starts with the mindset of both players.

[Stringer]

Matt Video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8307376475130093551&q=bjj

[treelizard]

Even judo has changed its throws for competition (instead of the old school ones where you used to crush your opponents knees.)

Obviously I would love to train in both the more crazy techniques I'm not supposed to do while sparring and the alive techniques, but since there's only so many hours in a day, chances are that most people will end up focusing on one more than the other.

So the question for me was, am I more likely to end up grounding and pounding some guy on the street and getting stabbed because I wasn't paying attention, or am I more likely to get punched a couple times and get an adrenaline dump because I've never been hit before, and only have more lethal techniques in my arsenal.

And the answer to this question of course depends on a lot of factors and may be different for your average police officer than it would be for your average teacher.

I think the lethal debate is just semantics. My point is that if MMA/Muay Thai/BJJ balls-to-the-walls sparring is so "lethal" (insert whatever term you prefer that will not induce a lecture) then you'd be killing your opponents every time you spar. I think that competition rules or just not being a jackass means that you will change your game for your alive sparring and it would be significantly different if you were actually fighting for real. The question is whether your alive sparring muscle memory (or habits, or whatever word you want to use) would prevent you from fighting for real the way you would (logically) intend to. If you've read On Combat you know that people's bad habits DO mess up their neat little scenarios in real life combat situations.

I disagree that one can utilize less forgiving techniques in real time against a training partner in the same way one would in a fight, unless that person was a real asshole and wanted to lose a training partner.

[johnj]

chances are that most people will end up focusing on one more than the other.

If you have a specific goal in training then yes, focus on one area. However, your post read, " BUT will also likely make me less lethal on the street because my muscle memory will be rules-based". This is telling me that you question your sparring format. Therefore, I suggested some insight on how to enhance the sparring methods without deviating completely from the format.

am I more likely to end up grounding and pounding some guy on the street and getting stabbed because I wasn't paying attention

No one can predict an outcome. The GNP method is fine as long as your not in a tunnel vision mode which is often a result of the way you train. This is what some people including myself have neglected. Awareness is part of everyone's strategy. And by simply implementing some elements to change the varables, you can still maintain your approach while enhancing your overall awareness.

or am I more likely to get punched a couple times and get an adrenaline dump because I've never been hit before,and only have more lethal techniques in my arsenal

If YOU'VE never been hit, chances are you may freeze and go into a state of hypervigilance NOT because "you only have more lethal techniques in your arsenal". I don't understand this question??? It would be a poor assumption to think that RBSD practitioners discredit MMA training. I would think for many if not all, MMA is still an essential part of the trainig regiment just not the overall focus.

The question is whether your alive sparring muscle memory (or habits, or whatever word you want to use) would prevent you from fighting for real the way you would (logically) intend to.

You fight how you train! And don't limit your throughts to techniques only.

If you've read On Combat you know that people's bad habits DO mess up their neat little scenarios in real life combat situations.

Can you clarify the "bad habits" you speak of. If anything, being more open and utilizing other elements to familiarize you with the potential variables would be a good thing.

I disagree that one can utilize less forgiving techniques in real time against a training partner in the same way one would in a fight,

This is a public forum...disagree all you want but don't discount something your questioning.

[treelizard]

Bad habits...well, I mentioned judo throws having been changed so you wouldn't crush your opponents knees. I notice when I spar I sometimes slow down if I think somebody is about to tap out, so I can stop in time...and people do this with me all the time. If they do that day in and day out they would be more likely to stop when it counts on the street. Or like say in boxing you are looking solely at your opponent and not keeping other opponents in mind, same with MMA... It's nice to say that in the street you *should* pay attention to multiples, weapons, etc. but say you end up in a range you've done alive training in on the street, who is to say that you will remember these other factors you haven't trained day in and day out. I have this stupid joke I make in MMA a lot when my buddy is demo-ing something and says, "Stand right here, like this." I always ask him if he is going to ask his opponent that on the street. In addition, a friend of mine who was going through te police academy (and has a ton of training and experience in all kinds of alive fighting) when he was doing his fight scenarios, if ground work wasn't working, he had a hard time realziing it and switching to something else. Then there's the whole fighting in a gi slowing you down in real time. That could impact things on the street.

I think that there's no way around this unless you want to seriously hurt your training partner on a regular basis. You either have to change the technique so it's less brutal (I could say less lethal, but I won't) like with judo throws or whatnot, or you have to train v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y in the more brutal tactics without making full contact or stopping early or whatnot. You are either sacrificing speed and power, or you are sacrificing technique. So if you "fight how you train" then you have to decide which is more important. And I think a lot of factors need to be taken into account, including what situations you're more likely to get yourself into, knowing your height/weight/personality/profession/places you spend time and a myriad of other factors.

My GNP example would have been easily understood by people who know me. I'm a 5'4 female and my fighting style was easily summed up by a kick-ass instructor as the "don't get hit" fighting style. I'm a largo fan, I'm very conscious of how close somebody is standing to me, etc. etc. The chance of me purposely choosing to grapple with some dude on the street is much lower than it would be for the cage fighter I mentioned. Likewise, he is much less likely to freeze than I am. And I'm more likely to carry a weapon and assume the other person has a weapon than he was because of my training and his training.

[WildWest.]

You don't have to belt the crap out of your training partners to be effective. Where you can't use a good amount of force because to do so would result in injury, then just do it safely and know that you are still training your mind and body to react that way. Hey, don't get to hung up about it anyway as the chances of being in a situation where you need to pull such techniques out are very slim.....I'm not saying don't train hard though!!

Besides, out in the desert how many people are there?!?!?:-)

[Tom Yum]

Do you train alive in your RBSD/Combatives classes?

No tree, they train the unliving.

[Garland]

still...it shouldn't be underemphasized that some douchebag with a bottle can always side swipe you while you're arguing with his pals.
No real way to train for that...right?

[WildWest.]

Absolutely Garland.

The premeditated random attack cannot be trained for. The guy who casually walks up to someone and stabs them in the eye with a pencil without any warning is always going to be a threat. Any half decent MA/SD instructor should let you know that there is a limit to the training they are teaching you and that it is essentially impossible to prepare yourself for this. However there will always be those who walk around with over inflated egos regarding their abilities, and their mortality, and can get themselves into big trouble.

Running is almost always an option!

[Garland]

Yeah...I'd still like to kick the shit out of the guy who did that to my little brother.

[Troll Virus]

I think it's funny that some people feel threatened just by the word "aliveness". It's just a term that's used to refer to realistic, effective training methods. Any style or school can train with "aliveness" so I don't see why it would bother anyone. It's useful because it gives us a way to describe training that incorporates sparring against resistance. Not all MA schools do this so it helps to have to have a term for those that do.

What a load of twonk.

Wow, you sound incredibly insecure. What about Matt Thornton and the SBG bothers you so much?

I wouldn't say I'm directly bothered about What Matt says or does, but the results generated by the poor material he has written, it's use 'out of context' and it's misunderstanding does.

For that matter why bring up Bullshido? You've brought it up just to bash the site on here before.

So your a little sensitive on that score?
Sorry, I didn't know.

I really don't understand why it's so important to you that you would bring it up just to disparage it. It sounds like you're just bitter because you got made fun of over there.

Well it depends on how you look at it. The way I look at it, it was more the other way round.

Get over it man, it's just a web site. My guess is that for you to be this butt-hurt over the term aliveness you must never have trained with it; why else would a simple word bother you so much?

Ignoring the implications of your comments there, what I dislike is the increasing tendency to use Acronyms and buzz words to make up for deficient vocabulary.

Now remember the original Star Trek series?
Which is correct?

a/ To boldly go, where no man has gone before.

b/ To go boldly, where no man has gone before.

[Sagacious Lu]

You're a good three months late with that response, and I wouldn't waste my time responding to you except that you said "twonk" and then went on to criticize people for having deficient vocabularies. That's just too rich to pass up. If irony were ice cream the whole forum would be having chocolate sundays on you right about now

[Troll Virus]

You're a good three months late with that response,

I make it about six weeks.
Exaggerate much?
I've had a family bereavement and a funeral to arrange/attend amongst other things, so apologies for not finding your issues at the top of my priority list.

Don't even think about giving it the usual 'I don't believe you' crap that you'd normally come out with, as it's easily verified by staff and members here.

and I wouldn't waste my time responding to you except that you said "twonk" and then went on to criticize people for having deficient vocabularies. That's just too rich to pass up. If irony were ice cream the whole forum would be having chocolate sundays on you right about now

Actually, the Chocolate Sundaes are on you.
See, you just couldn't resist a made up word, could you.
You'll now want to use 'Twonker' to mean people who can't use expletives in an alive setting now eh?

Further, just to clarify for people possibly infantile enough to fall for your word bending there, I wasn't criticizing anyone, merely pointing out the trend in overusing acronyms and buzz words, when there are perfectly good words already out there.

It is you who seem to have a chip on your shoulder.
Why not make yourself some cocoa, nutride on Bullshido for a wee while, then curl up in bed with a nice (thin) Matt Thornton) comic.
Sweet Dreams Sweetheart!

[Sagacious Lu]

[Tom Yum]

He got you on spelling.