New, new fight stories

[gregimotis]

Please post stories of violent or almost violent encounters you have had. Include, if you'd like, you're impressions after the fact - things you'd do differently, things you think went well, things the other guy(s) did, etc.


Feel free to discuss other peoples stories. Do not feel free to pick e-fights just for the heck of it.



Proceed...

[gregimotis]

I was sitting in a local (known to be rough) bar a few months ago and:


One young guy decided he'd been insulted by another and wouldn't let it go. The bartender (who I knew) got him and his three friends separated from the first guy for a while but they ended up back stirring up trouble again with the same man - who was obviously trying to back out of the trouble.

SO the players:

The aggressor (largish guy who I happened to know trained at a BJJ/MMA place in town)
the defender (some guy in with his family, trying his level best to get out of trouble)
The aggressor's two largish friends (Friends of the aggressor, but swinging back and forth between backing him up and trying to talk sense into him)
The bartender (and also bouncer, and also owner of the bar)
Myself (acquintance of the bartender)


And how it went down:

The bartender goes around the bar and gets between the aggressor and the defender. He is trying to talk the aggressor into leaving, but the aggressor is ignoring him and continues pressing toward the defender.
During this time, myself and another guy from the bar have moved behind the aggressor and his two friends, I can clearly hear the bartender talking the guy down, and hear the guy continuing to threaten the defender. The two friends have been trying to control their friend, but seem to have decided to back him right or wrong as they are puffing up and edging in.

The aggressor throws a punch over the bartender. At that point, I threw an RNC onto one of the largish friends. I was behind him and had planned this hoping I could choke him enough to control him, or choke him out if I needed too.
Although I could hear a lot of yelling, I lost track of what was going on other than my struggle with this guy, so here is how that went:
1) I put the choke on, he more or less sprawled - lifting me onto his back, he on all fours
2)Thinking I could control him without really committing to the ground, I didn't put my hooks in.
3) We struggled and I ended up on my back with him in my guard - locked up his arms and started thinking about how to turn him over.
4) while stalled, he starts telling me about how he 'trains grappling' and is a friend of Lorenzo (the bartender). I point out that I am also supporting Lo, and why are we fighting, shouldn't we be breaking this up?
5) we have a truce, and get up. The aggressor is being stalled by the bartender, we walk over and the aggressors friend, my new ally manhandle him out of the bar. The other friend joins us and things calm down.


So, what 'won' this fight for me was not fighting, but seeing a chance to talk my guy into joining the side of reason.

What 'lost' it for me was over-estimating my control of the situation with the RNC. He was very strong and had the training to turn around and escape to my guard. I believe I could have reserved him to mount, but I'd still have been grappling a guy thirty pounds heavier than me on the floor of a bar while his two friends are busy doing ???.

My grappling exp. both helped and hurt me. My training is competition based and taking him into my gaurd is what I did instinctively when what I maybe should have been doing was... I don't know, but getting underneath him wasn't it.

Finally, what would I do if I had a re-play? I'm not sure - striking him didn't seem appropriate, it all happened to fast to call the police or something like that, not getting involved in the first place wasn't a valid option to my mind, and talking de-escalating was in progress until the punch was thrown.
I still think using the RNC on the first guy I could reach was a good starting move, perhaps if I'd thrown it on with the intent to choke him out, rather than threaten him into submission I'd have had better luck.


Thoughts from the peanut gallery then:

I think it's a good story because it
1) is not a one-on-one fight with clear rules of engagement

2) Overwhelming force (knifing him or rabbit punching) was not a valid option, nor was 'running away' - the two most often proposed fight strategies on this board.

3) the outcome (talking him into changing sides) was non-linear. Nobody really 'won' in the classic sense.


Obviously, the fight was over in a few seconds - not so good for story-telling but that's how fast many fights go, in my experience.

[treelizard]

About a month and a half ago, I went shopping with one of my teachers. She is one of those amazing people who can take someone off the street and figure out what types of clothes look good on them, and I was so stoked that we found the perfect suit for like eighty bucks and change, or something. We did not get to finish looking for matching shoes and jewelry, though, because she had to pick her husband up at the airport. Then we remembered she was giving me her old ironing board. So I walked with her to her car and she handed me this big unwieldy board, which I stuck in my shopping cart, and she went on her way.

Even before she left I noticed these two big guys following us. I should've asked for a ride to my car, but I could only sort of remember where it was parked, and she was in a huge hurry, and besides, I was feeling kinda guilty because our shopping lasted a lot longer than I'd expected. I think we were in the store for four hours.

So anyways, I let my back-up leave while I tried to walk to my car with a big shopping cart and an ironing board. Meanwhile these two guys I'd noticed, were walking parallel to me but still kinda close to the store. I of course took longer than usual finding my car because my attention was divided, but I'm pretty sure they noticed me noticing them. I was also quite aware of the fact that they were pretty much walking all over the lot to wherever I was so I knew they were following me. They never did get closer, but I was prepared for the possibility.

As soon as I got to my car I made sure my blade was in hand as I opened the trunk, and I thought about how much of a shame it would be to use this ironing board as a projectile, because I really liked it. When it inadvertently snapped open it took me a minute or so to figure out how to close it, both because it's totally different than my own board (which sucks, btw) and because I was looking at the board, then looking around, etc. Eventually I managed to close the damn thing and drive off. Disaster averted!

I thought it was cool that they never walked closer and wonder if they would've if I was less aware, or not.

Next time my friend's walkin' me to my car! If only because she could close the ironing board!

[DickHardman]

funny story greg.

i had a very minor altercation a couple weeks ago. it wasnt really a fight or anything. there was a new guy hired at work who was a few years younger, really nerdy and immature. he is the kinda guy who goes out of his way to bug people and get negative attention.

so anyway, i was by my register, browsing this forum when this little turd comes over and starts dragging his feet around the carpet, and then trying to zap people in my department with his finger. i told him like 3 times not to come near me with that shit while he was trying to zap one of my co workers. so when he turned to me and started coming towards me, i just gave him a weak push kick to the front of his thigh as he was walking and he completely lost his balance and nearly fell flat on his face. i havent heard a peep out of him since.

[DickHardman]

btw greg, i think whats most important is to ask yourself what you would have done if you had no training at all? sure, maybe things didnt quite roll the way you wanted them to, no pun intended, but what if you had no training at all? do you think you would have had the confidence to go after a man much bigger than you? what would you have done if instead of training you had spent your time playing video games, or watching tv?

[Hardball]

2 many to list, 2 brutal to talk about but I will say this, multiple attackers, sucker punches and weapons are key elements of any street fight. Since I am old skool, a lot of our stuff is watered down now but at least we lived to tell about it. Young boys now days fight with guns and knives which are permanent. The majority of my "SERIOUS" Brawls came in Boot Camp or Duty Station or when I did that little stretch in the County Jail.

Strength and natural ability will carry you a long way but martial arts training will help you fight with impunity.

[elliotNess]

One of the most widely used yet utterly dangerous techniques in street fights is the Rabbit Punch. If you get hit with one or more rabbit punches in a street fight your life will be in serious jeapordy.

[jubaji]

What 'lost' it for me was over-estimating my control of the situation with the RNC. He was very strong and had the training to turn around and escape to my guard. I believe I could have reserved him to mount, but I'd still have been grappling a guy thirty pounds heavier than me on the floor of a bar while his two friends are busy doing ???..

Do you think it would have worked out better if you had taken a more 'control' attack instead of a 'submission' type of approach?

[gregimotis]

I did a short stint as a doorman at a local club because it seemed like a good way to see what scuffling was like. I took a few lessons away and a few questions:

- Most fights (inside the bar, anyway) are really better described as shoving matches or staring contests. It's mostly two guys trying not to lose face.

- The dangerous fights I saw/had often skipped right through the old 'stand-off, puff up yer chest' phase. Somebody just up and attacked somebody else.

- Usually, the doormen knew in advance who was going to start trouble in both scenarios. If you stood away from the crowd and watched, you could very often see someone just radiating trouble. Not always though...

- Women start a lot more trouble than I expected. But take them seriously,Often men get involved after it's started.

- Size does not equal threat. Buck-forty pounders are just as likely to get into it as Mr. Atlas. I know from boxing that muscle mass does not equal punching power - you don't know how mean somebody is until they show you.


Anyway, I seem to have hijacked my own thread

[PFSofPA]

gregimotis

Gregi, you're right on about the bar fights and such. I spent 3 and 1/2 years as a bouncer so I know a little about it. Between midnite and 1AM the booze takes over and away they went and away we went. If you really want to test your martial arts ability and senses, work as a bouncer. What you find is that you resort to the most basic techniques. As I was once told when I started, if the various techniques that you train do not come to you instinctually, you need to train them a lot more.

[gregimotis]

Keep it going, gregi! I'll keep the trolls out for you, since you stipulated noi e-fights from the very beginning. Anyone trolling in here will have their stuff deleted without reply.

And as it relates to the story, I have to admit, the picture of you trying to choke a guy out and then getting into a conversation with him only to discover you're on the same side is kind of funny! What happened with the rest of the group?

Mike I'd sure like to pick your brain a bit on that scene - first I'll answer yours, then I'll ask mine:

I don't really know what happened to the rest, to be honest. The other barfly got a fat lip and knocked down (I heard later), I gather the bartender grabbed the aggressor and prevented further mischief.

Your question actually leads right into mine;
How can one be both involved in the fight, and stay aware of the big picture? The moment I got physically involved, I lost all awareness of other people in the room. Can that be helped/trained/learned?

Any thoughts from the learned on dealing with limited ROE situations?
In my story, I felt that grappling was the only appropriate force - I had a blade, but obviously using it to prevent a fight was not appropriate, nor was much of the really dangerous striking (rabbit punching, for instance).



These questions aren't just for Mike, and I can take criticism if it helps a lesson. Boar, Hardball, Garland...
I would think Thai Bri in particular has some thoughts on scrapping where killing people and running away are not options. Anyone?

THanks PFS, you posted while I was typing.

[jubaji]

Do you think it would have worked out better if you had taken a more 'control' attack instead of a 'submission' type of approach?

[Hardball]

things early. Someone said a long time ago that for a soldier, the best rule of thumb is to be courteous to everyone, be friendly to no one, and have a plan for killing everyone you meet.

What a damn coincidence. I saw Boarspear post something to this effect last year. LOL Go Figure.

[gregimotis]

Do you think it would have worked out better if you had taken a more 'control' attack instead of a 'submission' type of approach?

(Responding to Jubaji before reading further posts)


I'm not sure what you mean by 'control'. If you mean something akin to a standing armlock/wristlock/etc., then maybe; However, although I've practiced some of these techniques, I'm not good at them, so I'm unsure I could put one on without blowing it.

Please comment.

[jubaji]

Well, it seems to me that if you had his back standing that you could have just as easily (easier, I'd say) taken a cross wrist or something to control him while having your 'conversation.' From there you could, if needed, take him down to his stomach while maintaining control and being free to move off if his buddy got ideas instead of putting yourself on your back in a situation where that might not be your best choice. Even standing you could use that kind of control to keep him in between you and someone else.