Invincible

[kingoftheforest]

Monkey trapped KOTF? A stick in your hand becomes a fist load. Works great IMHO.

But I'm not a boxer... or a stick fighter... What the hell do I know?

100% correct Sir. I really don't condone fist loads because of the potential for hand breakage. Therefore that didn't cross my mind. It is correct though.

Age (lots of it) and expierence help a lot. :smile:

[Tant01]

Whaaaa?

I agree the type of punch boxers use would not work well with a stick in your hand.

However if you train a punch such as hammer fist the even if you have a stick in your hand you can use the same attack angles.

Monkey trapped KOTF? A stick in your hand becomes a fist load. Works great IMHO.

But I'm not a boxer... or a stick fighter... What the hell do I know?

[kingoftheforest]

this thread is just idiotic.....

That's one opinion.

[wado_kai]

this thread is just idiotic.....

[Sagacious Lu]

I agree the type of punch boxers use would not work well with a stick in your hand.

However if you train a punch such as hammer fist the even if you have a stick in your hand you can use the same attack angles.

What you're saying makes sense, but right now the way I'm training specializes in punching... I'm more than willing to concede that I'm not a great stick fighter, but if it's unarmed striking we're talking about than I believe the way I'm training will give me an advantage in an unarmed contest over someone using skills they learned with weapons. The skill sets may be related but they're different enough that one doesn't make up for the lack of the other.

[kingoftheforest]

This an interesting question, and so far the discussion has been good so I'll weigh in. I have to disagree here. Because I am currently training in a boxing gym I spend hour after hour practicing a very specific type of unarmed attack because I believe punches to be one of the best empty handed weapons available. The skills that I'm developing are very different from those that I would need (and do not have btw) to launch quick, powerful, precise strikes with a stick Dog Brothers style and I would never claim otherwise. The flip side of that is that you can swing a stick all you want but that will not teach you the finer points of punching.

I agree the type of punch boxers use would not work well with a stick in your hand.

However if you train a punch such as hammer fist the even if you have a stick in your hand you can use the same attack angles.

[Sagacious Lu]

The only difference I'd see is the weapons guy may have a better knowledge of his range from farther out. He'd be more sensitive to the gap between fighters when it hit off.

The movement is the same just the range would change.

This an interesting question, and so far the discussion has been good so I'll weigh in. I have to disagree here. Because I am currently training in a boxing gym I spend hour after hour practicing a very specific type of unarmed attack because I believe punches to be one of the best empty handed weapons available. The skills that I'm developing are very different from those that I would need (and do not have btw) to launch quick, powerful, precise strikes with a stick Dog Brothers style and I would never claim otherwise. The flip side of that is that you can swing a stick all you want but that will not teach you the finer points of punching.

[kingoftheforest]

So tell me this: after say 9 months of training that way how would you compare their empty-hand skills to those of a roughly equal specimen in terms of natural physical ability who had trained exclusively in an empty-hand style? Obviously their weapons skills would be worlds better, but how would they measure up in the empty-hand area specifically? Or would you say there would be no difference?

The only difference I'd see is the weapons guy may have a better knowledge of his range from farther out. He'd be more sensitive to the gap between fighters when it hit off.

The movement is the same just the range would change.

[kingoftheforest]

My training is a little different. We don't differentiate the weapons from the empty hand. In our system, its about mastering the motion instead of mastering any one particular weapon. This way, every day objects can become weapons.

Sounds oddly familiar, That's the approach we take as well. If you can master just doing the movement adding a weapon shouldn't be a problem.

[jubaji]

So tell me this: after say 9 months of training that way how would you compare their empty-hand skills to those of a roughly equal specimen in terms of natural physical ability who had trained exclusively in an empty-hand style? Obviously their weapons skills would be worlds better, but how would they measure up in the empty-hand area specifically? Or would you say there would be no difference?

[Uke]

Being that they are sticks, its no big deal. No one goes gung ho. Its about mastering motion first. Simple angles of attack and how they correspond with footwork and blocks.

[jubaji]

The answer would have to be yes. Not with real edged weapons, but with sticks for sure.

So how do the new folks react to that? Are they excited, feeling 'cool' about swinging a weapon around right away, or are they intimidated by it? I'm guessing a lot of new folks enjoy that approach.

[Uke]

The answer would have to be yes. Not with real edged weapons, but with sticks for sure. The beautiful thing about how we train is that there are no beginner's classes. You get in and do what everyone else is doing. Sure there's a learning curve and that's understood, but the goal of our system or any system that wants its students to survive is to get them into the training of staying alive right away. Within the first week your head should be buzzing with all the information and knowledge.

Its not important that you fully understand right away. Its just important that you know the concept and train your muscle memory to engage aggression from intelligent angles. You won't be a master in 6 months to a year, but you will have dramatically improved your gross motor skills and reactions to all angles of attack. And most importantly your reactions will be based on the concepts and angles that you've learned.

IMO, it makes no sense to wait to train a student to deal with weapons. If they're paying you to teach them to stay safe, then weapons should be your #1 priority.

[jubaji]

My training is a little different. We don't differentiate the weapons from the empty hand. In our system, its about mastering the motion instead of mastering any one particular weapon. This way, every day objects can become weapons.

But, do you start new folks off with weapons right off the bat?

[Uke]

Every MA I have ever come across has stressed that if you're empty hand skills are no good, then weapons will not help you.

Therefore you must train empty handed before you train weapons. If you cannot control your own limbs that you were born with, how then can you control a foreign object expertly?

My training is a little different. We don't differentiate the weapons from the empty hand. In our system, its about mastering the motion instead of mastering any one particular weapon. This way, every day objects can become weapons.