Gunman Kills 21 on Virginia Tech campus

[DickHardman]

The fact is Virginia Tech has a no guns on campus policy certainly didn't stop Cho it only stopped the law abiding. That fact gave Cho a greater advantage over his victims and the anti-gun policy directly affected the number of victims.

Folks should have the right to self-determination, to self-protection and they should be able to do so without being worried about cowards with pencils coming looking for them. In general self-defense is an accepted reason to deploy deadly force but if the libtard cowards have there way we will all live in a non-permissive environment where only the criminals and the government have guns. You will then be left with a choice you can either be a defiant freeman or a dead but legal citizen.

“A man with a gun is a citizen, a man without a gun is a subject”

look whos back. do you have any exciting stories to share since the last time you were on the forum? whats the real deal on whats going on in iraq currently?

[darrianation]

a bIt late

The fact is Virginia Tech has a no guns on campus policy certainly didn't stop Cho it only stopped the law abiding. That fact gave Cho a greater advantage over his victims and the anti-gun policy directly affected the number of victims.

Folks should have the right to self-determination, to self-protection and they should be able to do so without being worried about cowards with pencils coming looking for them. In general self-defense is an accepted reason to deploy deadly force but if the libtard cowards have there way we will all live in a non-permissive environment where only the criminals and the government have guns. You will then be left with a choice you can either be a defiant freeman or a dead but legal citizen.

“A man with a gun is a citizen, a man without a gun is a subject”

[DickHardman]

Just making sure you don't get lonely, DH

why did you have to steal one of jubajis one liners? surely you could have done better.

[gregimotis]

maybe he just got tired of keeping so many secrets for so many years.

Does all that dope give everyone such a one-track mind?

Just making sure you don't get lonely, DH

[DickHardman]

Considering he was employed there for 15 years he must have performed well (or atleast at a satisfactory level).

Perhaps he was having a bad streak somewhere and his personal life must have rubbed off on his professional life?

Perhaps the company wanted to let him go without having to pay for his retirement benefits and letting him go on poor review was the only way to avoid said payouts?

Or, he might have had difficulties getting along with co-workers and maybe writing the poor review was the only way to warn him?

Maybe it was some combination of the above reasons.

maybe he just got tired of keeping so many secrets for so many years.

[Tom Yum]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070421/ap_on_re_us/nasa_evacuation

By RASHA MADKOUR, Associated Press Writer
Sat Apr 21, 7:58 PM ET

HOUSTON - The gunman in an apparent murder-suicide at the Johnson Space Center targeted a NASA worker he feared could get him fired, police said Saturday.

William Phillips had received a poor job review a month before authorities said he smuggled a revolver into the space center, shot David Beverly and barricaded himself with a hostage before killing himself in a building that houses communications and tracking systems for the space shuttle. The hostage escaped.

Police Chief Harold Hurtt said Phillips bought the .38-caliber revolver March 18, two days after receiving an e-mail citing deficiencies in his job performance.

A copy of the e-mail was found in Phillips' lunch bag on the day of the shootings, police Lt. Larry Baimbridge said.

Phillips had lunch with Beverly and another man on Friday, police said. That afternoon, Phillips entered Beverly's office with the snub-nosed revolver in his hand and said "You're the one who's going to get me fired," Baimbridge said.

After Beverly talked with Phillips for several minutes, Phillips shot him twice, police said. He then returned and shot Beverly twice more, officials said.

Phillips duct-taped a woman to a chair, holding her for hours, police said. Officers entered the room and freed her after hearing the gunshot that killed Phillips.

The hostage, identified by NASA as Fran Crenshaw, a contract worker with MRI Technologies, worked in the same general area.

Space agency spokesman John Ira Petty said Saturday that NASA was conducting what he called a continuous review of security procedures. Petty would not discuss specifics, saying the apparent murder-suicide was a police matter.

To enter the space center, workers must show an ID badge as they drive past a security guard. The badge allows workers access to designated buildings.

Beverly's wife, Linda, said her 62-year-old husband, to whom she had been married for 41 years, was an electrical parts specialist who felt working at NASA was his calling.

"His intellect and his knowledge, David really felt he was contributor," she said.

Phillips, 60, an employee of Jacobs Engineering of Pasadena, Calif., had worked for NASA for 15 years. He was unmarried, had no children and apparently lived alone.

During the confrontation, NASA employees in the building were evacuated and others were ordered to remain in their offices for several hours. Roads within the 1,600-acre space center campus were blocked off, and a nearby middle school kept its teachers and students inside as classes ended. Doors to Mission Control were locked as standard procedure

-------------------------------------------------------------

Considering he was employed there for 15 years he must have performed well (or atleast at a satisfactory level).

Perhaps he was having a bad streak somewhere and his personal life must have rubbed off on his professional life?

Perhaps the company wanted to let him go without having to pay for his retirement benefits and letting him go on poor review was the only way to avoid said payouts?

Or, he might have had difficulties getting along with co-workers/dealing with new procedures and maybe writing the poor review was the only way to warn him?

Maybe it was some combination of the above reasons. His actions aren't justifiable at all, but something drove him past sanity.

[Garland]

I agree with this observation with some rare exceptions.

Consider the kids in my psych program an exception. We're a close knit little dysfunctional family. I love these people. We help each other get by.

[Tom Yum]

I guess we just disagree on how we see people. Again, maybe I'm just more of a cynic, but in my experience, speaking as a whole, most college students do not have the same close bonding experiences that I would expect to spark such a group mentality.

I agree with this observation with some rare exceptions. Same could be said of the general population, sadly.

[treelizard]

I suppose I should clarify that I mean no offense or affront to the victims of anything like this in examining the "maybes" of a situation. Being brought up in reality based martial arts and the military, questioning failures is as much a part of learning as examining success. It always stings, especially when you're close to the situation. I always hated having every little fault picked apart by some evaluator after a mission or exercise, but in the end, it's for one's own growth.

I guess I was thinking maybe it's possible to look at who survives and who doesn't in the same way you do with people who get stuck in the wilderness... Everyone keeps telling me to read the book Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies and Why. Of course you can blame it on the circumstances but why is it that different people in different circumstances react differently, and how can we train ourselves to develop those qualities, and become the type of people that survive... or are more likely to survive, or however you want to phrase it.

[treelizard]

When I fired a pistol for the first time, I felt a strong sense of responsibility on my shoulders; a very sobering reality that this weapon can end a life and should only be used to protect. I think alot of people would feel this way when they have to wield so much power.

I think that's only how good guys (or gals) feel when they handle a weapon.

[Tom Yum]

When I fired a pistol for the first time, I felt a strong sense of responsibility and seriousness on my shoulders; a very sobering reality that this weapon can end a life and should only be used to protect.

I think alot of people would feel this way when having to wield so much power.

I wonder if this Cho guy ever handled a weapon before the rampage. Wielding that kind of power is serious stuff and you can feel that seriousness.

[Tant01]

Congratulations on your fourth greenie Treelizard!!!

[treelizard]

I think being ready to fight back when attacked is not something that should be left to chance, genetics or life experiences. As I see it, it boils down to a decision to act. And it can improve with training. Maybe people need to decide to act and get some more training.

As for the professor who acted, one could make the opposite argument if he hadn't acted--that he had faced enough pure hatred unlike what anyone has faced and so he knew the extent of it better than anyone and would therefore be more likely to freeze up.

I think quoting statistics on close quarter killing is inaccurate in discussing this type of scenario because even if people had fought back chances are it would have been more like disarming/restraining the guy, not shooting rows of people one by one as he did.

As far as "criticizing" anything the victims did, I think the fear of this is something we as a society need to get over. I remember when I first posted about my friend who was basically murdered by some thug in a pub and Mike immediately responded with "he could have done X, Y and Z." Sure it pissed me off at the moment, but he was right. And I prefer this to self-defense instructors, usually women's self-defense instructors, who insist that "if you got home safely you did the right thing." Which is bullshit. You could have done every wrong thing possible and still gotten home safely because of luck or chance. I think being prepared for future situations is more important than sparing people's feelings.

As for the article (the second link I posted, not the first one), it points out that Marshall was relying on anecdotal evidence, not fact. It further goes on to shed light on some credibility issues and lack of interview notes. "The only interview notes unveiled to date were found by Leinbaugh in an archive of a Maryland National Guard division. In them, GIs repeatedly testify to firing their weapons in action. The notes do not contain a single question about the ratio of fire." and "So Marshall's findings about combat in the one battle he really did subject to his famous scrutiny run exactly contrary to what he published in Men Against Fire." Hmmm. Read this again more closely:

http://pages.slc.edu/~fsmoler/amheritagemarshall1989pageone.htm

Pure chance. Just one. Out of hundreds. Some people are perhaps mentally "ready" whether by genetics perhaps, or life experiences. How many others successfully overcame their stress response in that room?

As for the professor, like I said, he had faced pure hatred unlike what damn near ANY group of people has ever faced. And he survived. So he didn't freeze up in the submission reflex.

Again, I'm personally uncomfortable "criticizing" anything the victims did, as I feel it's very disrespectful, but given your argument, i'd point out he did not seem to attempt to "kill" the threat.

[bigred389]

As for the Grossman quotes, I understand that you were speaking in generalities. But when you use an exaggerated generality (like "absolutely desensitize") to support a conclusion that's dubios and incomplete to begin with, you're presenting an exaggerated argument as well. My correction was more for the sake of accuracy than for criticism.

Thanks, I don't exactly have my copy with me, and have to go on memory alone.

A mother defending her child is functioning on instinct? As opposed to training and desensitization? That would seem to support my argument and damage yours, would it not? People reacting in an extreme emotional situation (like, for instance, and active shooter trying to kill them) have the very same instincts that drive that mother. My illustration was simply to show that the potential is there for all of them to react similarly, even if they don't actually do it.

Fair enough...though I'd say a mother defending a child is in popular lore considered the single most powerful force in the universe. There's always though unbelievable stories of women lifting cars to save babies and what not.

Finally, you mentioned overcoming the reluctance to kill. You said that it's ectremely difficult without some strong overriding influence. Wouldn't you consider a psychotic gunman murdering your friends around you a "strong overriding influence?" I would. And if you go back and read your Grossman (On Killing, specifically) you'll find he did too. He repeatedly illustrates a soldier's willingness to kill in defense of his friends. Make no mistake - that gunman was not just going after a bunch of individuals. He was shooting a group; he was shooting the friends and classmates of the guys next to the victims. Again, your choice of source supports the other side as much as it supports yours.

See, I guess we just disagree on how we see people. Again, maybe I'm just more of a cynic, but in my experience, speaking as a whole, most college students do not have the same close bonding experiences that I would expect to spark such a group mentality.

Please understand, I am not taking shots at you or criticising your points for the sake of criticism. I am speaking from the point of view of a guy who's been personally faced with the decision to shoot or not shoot, to injure or not injure, and to maim or not maim. I've been in the position many of you are theorizing about, and so I think it's fair to say that I might have some valid perspectives on the matter as well.

Thanks, and I respect your opinion and experiences. However, I feel your experience and capabilites are out of the ordinary, to put it lightly.
As you've no doubt noticed, I have a hard time believing the average Joe could do the same.

[Garland]

...well...fuckin' DUR. I could've told you this much...not "psychopath," ANTISOCIAL PERSONALITY DISORDER...just a little lower functioning than the ones we tend to associate with the malady. (like Ted Bundy, not to be confused with Al Bundy).

THIS is from the article somebody posted up from "Slate" magazine;

http://www.slate.com/id/2099203/

"In popular usage, almost any crazy killer is a 'psychopath.' But in psychiatry, it's a very specific mental condition that rarely involves killing, or even psychosis. 'Psychopaths are not disoriented or out of touch with reality, nor do they experience the delusions, hallucinations, or intense subjective distress that characterize most other mental disorders,' writes Dr. Robert Hare, in Without Conscience, the seminal book on the condition. (Hare is also one of the psychologists consulted by the FBI about Columbine and by Slate for this story*.) 'Unlike psychotic individuals, psychopaths are rational and aware of what they are doing and why. Their behavior is the result of choice, freely exercised.' Diagnosing Harris as a psychopath represents neither a legal defense, nor a moral excuse. But it illuminates a great deal about the thought process that drove him to mass murder...He lied for pleasure, Fuselier says. 'Duping delight'—psychologist Paul Ekman's term—represents a key characteristic of the psychopathic profile.
Harris married his deceitfulness with a total lack of remorse or empathy—another distinctive quality of the psychopath. "


Antisocial Personality Disorder

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx7.htm

SYMPTOMS
This disorder is characterized by a long-standing pattern of a disregard for other people's rights, often crossing the line and violating those rights. This pattern of behavior has occurred since age 15 (although only adults 18 years or older can be diagnosed with this disorder) and consists by the presence of the majority of these symptoms:

*failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
*deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
*impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
*irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
*reckless disregard for safety of self or others
*consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain *consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
*lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

------------------------------------------
but...there can be crossovers (comorbidity) with other personality disorders...see if this one kinda sorta fits the bill for these kids too... (it has been what you guys have been claiming they have)

Narcissistic Personality Disorder
SYMPTOMS
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

(4) requires excessive admiration

(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
-----------------------------------------------------------
personally...I think this might be up in the house too ->

HARRIS
Antisocial & Narcissism

CHO
Schizoid Personality Disorder
SYMPTOMS
A pervasive pattern of detachment from social relationships and a restricted range of expression of emotions in interpersonal settings, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:
*neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family
*almost always chooses solitary activities
*has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person
*takes pleasure in few, if any, activities
*lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
*appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others
*shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affectivity

KLEBOLD
Avoidant Personality Disorder
SYMPTOMS
This disorder is characterized by a long-standing and complex pattern of feelings of inadequacy, extreme sensitivity to what other people think about them, and social inhibition. It typically manifests itself by early adulthood and includes a majority of the following symptoms:

*avoids occupational activities that involve significant interpersonal contact, because of fears of criticism, disapproval, or rejection
*is unwilling to get involved with people unless certain of being liked
*shows restraint within intimate relationships because of the fear of being shamed or ridiculed
*is preoccupied with being criticized or rejected in social situations
*is inhibited in new interpersonal situations because of feelings of inadequacy
*views self as socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others
*is unusually reluctant to take personal risks or to engage in any new activities because they may prove embarrassing

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Poor fuckers, for sure. You can kind of get a sense of what they were from this, right?

To the above PERSONALITY DISORDERS...throw these up there as probabilities:

Cho & Kleibold: (Social Phobia) http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx35.htm
From watching Cho's video...I have a hunch-> (PTSD) http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx32.htm




AND YET!!! this is the one that has pissed me off the most;

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx49.htm

I don't have it...but someone I knew...intimately...did.