Gunman Kills 21 on Virginia Tech campus

[Tant01]

I wonder what the common denominator is for people who DO act, other than training. Maybe doing a lot of things that scare us all the time, or something.

......

That is a good question. I often find myself wondering the same thing about people who do NOT?

Being there seems like a good enough reason to me.

[treelizard]

Trained soldiers(of roughly the same age actually) have had problems with such situations in history...I feel it's a lot to expect from college students, particularly given the shock they'd feel of having something absolutely unexpected happen.

I wonder what the common denominator is for people who DO act, other than training. Maybe doing a lot of things that scare us all the time, or something.

One time my MA coach (who is awesome) went all out insane on a drill I knew, way faster and harder than I expected...and somehow after he did that I just didn't have as much trouble going in towards things swinging anymore. Not that this is even on the same magnitude, but maybe it's just about making training as realistic as possible.

And I agree with the dude interviewed who said students and classrooms should train just as seriously as attackers. Sadly, most teachers don't have that mindset.

[Tant01]

Okay, my money is going to Treelizard...

So sorry G man.

[treelizard]

I wonder what it would be like if each teacher and faculty member was given a caseload of students they were responsible for. To really get to know them, and for the students to be able to go to them if they were having any kind of problem. Or even upperclassmen who would mentor younger students.

By the way, most high schools have IEPs (individualized education plans) for students who are considered special ed which usually includes most students who are at risk.

Here's a paper I wrote on it last semester; I am just going to cut and paste it in. This is just useful info to have and also help brainstorm how to incorporate new measures...

I think there should be a security team that gets a copy of student IEPs, but everyone would probably cry oppression and violation of civil liberties and privacy and FERPA laws and all that.

Individualized Education Programs

An IEP is an individualized education program, or a document which serves as a blueprint for the education of a particular student who has an identified disability. The IEP addresses many different areas of student need, which include accommodations in classes and the services or support they need. Teachers are able to examine individualized education plans for their students so that they can accommodate these plans in their classroom.

There are several essential components of an IEP. Some of these were established in 1975 and others have been updated since then. Also, there are some specific state requirements which vary. What follows is a list of federally required elements. Following that, I will describe examples of these from Ms. XXXX's English class when applicable.

The first component is determining the student’s present level of functioning. The student’s level of achievement academically, his or her behavior, communication skills, social skills and other areas of concern must be included. This makes it easier to determine progress from year to year. Teachers can rate student behavior and provide test scores, but assessments by specialists are also included. Teachers receive information on the student’s disability and can determine how to address this in the classroom. Ms. XXXX was aware of which students had disabilities, which included several students with ADD, a student with bipolar and a student with a processing disability.

The second component is annual goals and short-term objectives. These are individualized goals estimating what a student should be able to accomplish within a year. Short-term objectives are smaller goals which can be completed in order to meet the larger annual goals. Most students in Ms. XXXX’s class had the goal of completing coursework in class with modifications. For example, her student with a processing disability had to complete all of the coursework, but received extensions on her paper. Some students were allowed to have their notes with them during tests.

The third component is the extent of participation in general education. This includes specific reasons why students must be excluded from general education classes. One example of this from Ms. XXXX’s class is an IEP that allows students with ADD to take tests in a testing center so they will not be distracted.

The fourth component is the services and modifications needed. The IEP must contain a thorough outline of any and all special services the student needs. This includes transportation, vocational assistance and so forth. It also includes who is responsible for providing the services. As described above, several of Ms. XXXX’s students needed some modifications in class. However, the class I observed was a low level class. She assured me that some of her kids with learning disabilities were doing better in class than some of her students without any learning disabilities.

The fifth component is a behavior intervention plan, or a discipline plan in place in case inappropriate behavior needs to be responded to. Luckily, Ms. XXXX has not had that problem in her class.

The sixth component is the date of initiation and frequency and duration of service and anticipated modifications. This is self-explanatory: it is a list of the dates special modifications and services begin, their frequency and when they must end. Ms. XXXX’s students who are receiving modifications from her in class will be receiving modifications all year long.

The seventh component is comprised of strategies for evaluation, or a checklist to evaluate whether the goals are being met. The final component is a transition plan, which ensures that a student will leave school prepared for adult life.

Other requirements of an IEP include signatures of the student’s parent or guardian, justification for the recommended placement and specific supports, services and strategies.

This assignment has made me grateful for the amount of work so many different professionals put into an IEP—and the fact that all teachers need to do is simply help implement it!

GARLAND'S INTERVENTION PLAN FOR SCREENING AND TAKING PROPHILACTIC MEASURES THAT AT-RISK KIDS DON'T TURN INTO DEVIANT ADOLESCENTS (the whole spectrum...would it help somebody like Cho...who knows)

[treelizard]

I tried to pos rep you for this but it won't let me. VERY well done.

Thanks!! It's frustrating though how everyone always thinks this is overreacting but...better safe than sorry...

[treelizard]

First of all their taking these views on statistics from a book called "Women, Work and Family in America" you dont think thats going to be skewed.

I bet a book called "women dont do shit" might have some different perspectives on the same statistics..

It's census stats.

Anyway....

"On average, women ages 18-65 spend about 30 hours per week in paid employment and 22 hours doing housework"

Taken from her source.... funny, I worked 25 hours this week... and I'm a full time university student, during exams, training MA in a city over an hour away, 3 times a week, seeing my girlfriend, moving out of my room (housework?) and i still have time to come on here.

That's nice. I normally work 40 at my full-time job and 4 hours for lunch breaks, around 10 at my part-time job, plus I go to the school for 7 hours and 1 hour to get there and back, and I train martial arts a half hour away. Oh and I'm in school.

Thats 5 hours less work than women (on average) in a work week, and I'm doing alot more.

30 hours isnt even a full work week, 40 is. And while women may be doing 52 hours of work between houes and employment, men are doing 10 hours of housework plus there jobs. If there only working 30 hours a week you americans need to get off your slacking asses. It doesnt say how many hours on average they work a week, though I'll guess its 40 at least, or over 40. (The average person works a 9-5 which is 40, than you have constructio nworkers, farmers, etc...) These are far more common than the rich ass guy who works 20 hours a week.

I'd say being a mom is a full work week even without 30 hours on top of it. Anyway, I hope you never have children and I hope your girlfriend dumps you so she won't have to hear you tell her to get off her slacking ass.

I think its funny how they dont have the statistics for men there, about the work week. Carefully left that one out though, guess thats what you get when you have sources with an agenda.

Look it up.

I dont really see how this is pertinent. First of all you said historically, therefore it doesnt neccessarily reflect what happens today. Second of all I think modern day were a little more civilized then that. I doubt if you took a sample of 10 random north american males and left them alone in a house for a month they'd start to torture each other. Actually I bet they'd be fine with it.

And they probably would get a little rougher, probably would be more violence, whos to say this is wrong?

Athens and Sparta did things very different, neither was better. They still ran a perfectly fine civilization while being brutal and trying to get rid of the "softness".

On another note, explain homosexuals to me? How the hell do they ever raise a kid without a women around, how do they exist without the constant influence (nagging) of women?

Damn..... looks bleak for them.

Okay, since you obviously don't think women are necessary for society, again I hope your girlfriend dumps you and finds someone who respects her instead.

Have a nice day.

[Britt]

Looking at the big picture, he was a bullied individual who may not have had any real outlets for his tension and just bottled it up. He probably fed himself the wrong kinds of thinking and the rampage was his final release?

I can honestly say is that as his classmate, if we attended school, whether in highschool or college, I would have stepped in, tried to befriend him, take him out for coffee or what not after hearing some of the exchanges that may have taken place and tried to help the guy.

A few of his classmates say they tried, and he shut them out cold. He usually refused to sit with anyone during lunch when they asked, and when he did refused to speak. A lot of psych profilers think the "bullied" aspect of school shootings is played up in the media, and that other motives are often at work. There was an excellent article in Slate about the FBI psychological profile of the Columbine killers:

The Depressive and the Psychopath (click for link)

[Garland]

I wonder if there'll be another incident today. Check the date...

oh...and by the way, smoke up Dick.

[Garland]

I got lost after the second sentence and started thinking about a turkey sandwhich...

weird...I was thinking eating a turkey sandwich when I wrote that.

[Tom Yum]

I got lost after the second sentence and started thinking about a turkey sandwhich...jk.

Hear you loud and clear, G. I'll get my $0.15 and send it right away!

[Tant01]

The billion dollar question...

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here, Garland, so don't take this personal. I'm going to put on my hard-nosed, cynic hat and say:

I don't understand what you are trying to say?

He wants you to send MONEY!!!


LOL

[Tom Yum]

GARLAND'S INTERVENTION PLAN FOR SCREENING AND TAKING PROPHILACTIC MEASURES THAT AT-RISK KIDS DON'T TURN INTO DEVIANT ADOLESCENTS (the whole spectrum...would it help somebody like Cho...who knows)

In order to assess each child to determine whether or not they are potentially at risk of becoming a deviant adolescent, it would be prudent to collect a brief family history in order to understand if there is a genetic predisposition to things that would constitute problem behaviors or if a child may be learning problem behaviors inside their household. This would include looking for substance abuse in their families as well as criminal histories. Not only would collecting a family history aid in perhaps understanding whether or not there is a genetic component, but also learned antisocial behaviors. Since the purpose of this program is to determine and intervene on the behalf of at risk children and not to determine whether or not biology or learned behaviors are primary causal factors in adolescent deviance, it would not be unnecessary to make any such claims. It would only be important to look at the collected data and understand that several things that could be considered deviant behaviors have roots in the home, whether the familial etiological ties are biological, learned, or a combination of the two is inconsequential. Other potential factors that may contribute to a child being “at risk” of becoming a deviant adolescent could include temperment, level of self constraint versus disinhibition, positive versus negative emotionality, socio-economic status, and perhaps (as we touched upon in class) issues of attatchment. It would also warrant looking into the parents’ work and marital situation, as children who are undersupervised or neglected have a much greater propensity to have difficulties later in their lives. Naturally, if a child has already developed antisocial behaviors (lying, stealing, bullying, vandalism, etc.) during their childhood, they should be monitored as “at risk” for becoming deviant adolescents.

The intervention program should focus on resolving some of the individual participants problems such as; dealing with attatchment issues, resolving family turmoil, and teaching self-regulation skills as well as other skill sets to the at-risk children. This would include working on effortful control, executive attention, controlling impulsivity, and teaching the children how to better manage themselves. This would, naturally, be a costly and time consuming intervention that would require a great deal of specialized care, but I believe that the ideal (and perhaps completely unfeasible and unrealistic) course of action would combine individual therapy, group therapies (with the children, families, and educators), separate family therapies, and separate drug and crime education programs for the children.


ANYONE GOT A BILLION DOLLARS? Fund me, and I can make an impact on this shit...I promise.

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here, Garland, so don't take this personal. I'm going to put on my hard-nosed, cynic hat and say:

I don't understand what you are trying to say?

[Garland]

As an aspiring teacher I can only talk about this in how it relates to the classroom. There was an attempted suicide at the school I was volunteering at, and the teacher who dealt with it said she definitely saw warning signs in the student's writing. I saw a piece of suicidal writing at another school I was at and the teacher did not respond to it. She said it was "good poetry." So I jotted down his name and I called his counselor and social worker and spoke with the assistant principal, even though I knew the teacher I was working with would probably hate me for it.

If a kid is suicidal, let the principal know immediately. I mean right now as soon as you know hand deliver the message to the secretary immediately. Then call the parents yourself as a back up unless it's against school rules. Then immediately call the social worker and guidance counselor. Do not wait until your free period. Do not pass go. Do not collect two hundred dollars. Kids have been known to kill themselves in school. And same thing with kids drawing guns or turning in papers with anything about school violence. Also contact the school security team immediately.

Every teacher I know that has failed to do this has regretted it. If that's not enough motivation, teachers are legally obligated to report this information to the administration and the school counselor and/or case worker. If a student is being abused you have a legal obligation to immediately call CPS. As in DROP EVERYTHING NOW AND DO IT. And I would tell students ahead of time that I will report any illegal activities in their journals. No surprises if and when I do.

I tried to pos rep you for this but it won't let me. VERY well done.

[bigred389]

Good stuff, TL. I wonder if it's going to be enough to overcome this P.C. victim mindset we've ingrained in the entire population of our country. One can hope.

On a similar note, I saw United 93 again tonight. God love those heroes aboard that flight. If they hadn't stepped up and attacked their attackers, who knows how many more innocent people on the ground might have died also.

I don't think it's a victim mindset.

I think it's a sunshine and rainbows mindset. They don't expect such things to happen to them.

"Don't make my baby a killer" and all that. It's hard enough to get independent BOXING sponsored in some universities. Though apparently football and rugby is ok.(???)

It would take one HELL of a change in societal mindset...

[bigred389]

Happy to oblige treelizard here. As a matter of background, I have been a tactical trainer for Special Operations and Conventional Military forces since 1995, which hardly makes me a grizzled old veteran. However, it does mean I have seen the tactics change in response to everything from Columbine to Operation Enduring Freedom. One constant:

When you find yourself in a near ambush, you face the shooters and attack through the ambush itself.

In simpler terms, you turn toward whoever is shooting at you and you attack right into them until you've overrun and destroyed them. A gunman who is set on lining up students and shooting them one by one will kill more people if he is allowed to pursue his own course of action than if he is forced to deal with one forced upon him by outside influences. The weapons he had were not capable of penetrating four or five bodies at a time, and he doesn't seem to have been experienced enough to place accurate fire on vital areas while backpedaling away from an enraged group of students. He'd have gotten some, but likely not as many. Even unarmed, or armed with the kinds of things you can throw and swing (and find in a classroom), a group may well have stood a good chance of stopping him earlier. We'd still be mourning some tragic deaths, though, so I do not suggest it lightly.

Mike, I agree the shooter was probably not a firearms expert, considering he only recently purchased his weapons.
However, on the other side of things, taking him down "efficiently" from a simple numbers perspective would require a disciplined team effort.

Maybe I'm just too much of a cynic...but I just don't see everyone instantly rushing him at full speed...and then there are the psychological effects of seeing people doing the same fall ahead of you.

Trained soldiers(of roughly the same age actually) have had problems with such situations in history...I feel it's a lot to expect from college students, particularly given the shock they'd feel of having something absolutely unexpected happen.

For the record, I'm not saying it's politically correct to see things that way...I don't consider anything but results, and I don't see it as "realistic."

Like I said...maybe I'm just a pessimist.