man shot after refusing to surrender his beer

[Piston]

Piston,
Consider something that's not often talked about. The Civil War (and every other war throughout human history in my opinion) was indeed fought over business interests. But there were also human interests in the conflict that shouldn't be made light of. Hitler's march on the world was also for business interests, by the way. Acquisition or the protection of territory, material, wealth, and resources drive nearly all wars. Still, consider that slavery was the key public issue surrounding the Civil War. Consider that an entire cross-section of the American population at the time was made up of people torn from their homeland and forced to work American plantations under slave conditions. They were packed aboard ships, stripped of all human dignity and self-worth, and forced to work under the most abysmal labor system to which our country has ever subscribed. Even if we take that to be 100% true, you are forced by logic, reason, and common sense to answer one more question:

Once they were freed from such a bond, why did the vast majority choose to stay?

They didn't "return home" to their former lands of promise. They stayed willingly in the country that had enslaved them. Why? Maybe it was the promise of opportunity. Perhaps it was because the Union handed them guns and said, "You are free to fight for your own freedom, and if you do so, you are a citizen."

Who can say...

I totally agree with you that most, if not all war has a business aspect to it. To cite us Brits, we conquered a 1/4 of the world and became immensely wealthy off of our conquests. That said the countries we invaded benefitted as well by the British creating an infrastructure there. The Falklands war was also financially motivated, those who control the Falklands control that sea space around there, an important shipping lane.

"You are free to fight for your own freedom, and if you do so, you are a citizen." -addendum "But you'll still have to drink from different fountains from us first class people. You know, the white ones."

I think the reason a lot of former slaves in America stayed there because they had nowhere to go. Importing of slaves from Africa officially stopped in 1808, while the Civil war started in 1861. The vast majority of slaves at this time will have been born in America and into slavery, they had no home in Africa to go to and I seriously doubt they had the means to do so even if they had one.

And Jubaji I don't have the time, inclination or audience to go into the depths of something as massively complex as a civil war. Chances are your knowledge of it is greater than mine (I'm guessing you're American), so I'm not going to attempt to envelope all aspects of this particular piece of history, just the piece I feel is most relevant.

If America implemented gun control like there is in Europe then you would see the number of gun-related homicides drop dramatically. Why? Because then the large majority of the aforementioned scumbags Can't get one either. And yes there will be a black market where they can buy them but it will be on a much smaller scale. There's a difference between picking up a gun from a pawn shop and having to smuggle one in from outside the country. But then owning a gun is an allowance given by the American constitution. Fair enough but the rest of your amendmants have been revoked through the creation of the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions act, but then again rights to privacy and the Geneva Convnention don't generate as much money.

[gregimotis]

America's liberal use of, and love of, guns is, in my opinion, one of the single worst problems the people of the world face, including Americans.

6,000 people die in Africa of AIDS each day and 11,000 more are infected.
The reason? America loves guns.

25,000 people die of starvation every day.
The reason? America loves guns.

[jubaji]

The American Civil War, as with most wars America wages was to do with business. One can become very rich with large amounts of unpaid labour at your beck and call, so all those in the rebel states who had attained affluence through exploiting the black man didn't want their free ride taken away.

Way to grossly oversimplify and misrepresent history, professor.

[treelizard]

It must have been some cigarette to kill all those people for it.

Ooh, you're so witty and clever.

[Piston]

What about:

• Slavery
• Pol Pot
• Hitler
• Stalin
• Mousollini
• Communism

You're right. Bringing those "problems" to an end was far more effective before people resorted to weapons.

I think you're taking what he's said a little out of context. Almost all of those are war-time problems, not domesticated violence.

Slavery however is a different one. The American Civil War, as with most wars America wages was to do with business. One can become very rich with large amounts of unpaid labour at your beck and call, so all those in the rebel states who had attained affluence through exploiting the black man didn't want their free ride taken away. Similarly I doubt those in Washington would wage war on its own people for purely altruistic reasons. If such was the case black people in America would have been equal to their white counterparts after the north won. Such was not the case until the 1960's where it took the words of one man and many others to bring about real change, no matter how much those with the guns tried to stop them.

Also the same with Communism. What do you think would have happened if Gorbachev took the same "Guns solve everything" stance? I wouldn't be typing this right now if he didn't choose to stand out against popular Russian opinion, putting himself at great risk.

America's liberal use of, and love of, guns is, in my opinion, one of the single worst problems the people of the world face, including Americans. Since 1945, a time when American business made a hell of a lot of money out of war, as it has done ever since, America has deposed of 50 different regimes. Even democratically elected ones (through the use of force), i.e. Hugo Chavez. Now I'm not saying Chavez is a saint but he was democratically elected (as far as we can tell) and then deposed by American-backed military members because he tried to take control of the Venezeulan State Oil Company. "America unfriendly people in control of oil?! **** that!" was the American response as it has been throughout recent history.

Americans are dying and will continue to die for American business as long as the national conscious is "Guns solve the problem".

[Thai Bri]

I happen to know someone who was murdered in Liverpool over a cigarette. He's not the only one.

It must have been some cigarette to kill all those people for it.

[aseepish]

Add Japan, Korea, Kuwait, and Kosovo to that list.

[darrianation]

You can't solve a problem with guns. Period. Infact, you can't solve a problem by weapons either.

The wicked evil villains of the world cannot be persuaded to be good honest and productive human beings by kind words and hugs however they can certainly be persuaded by goodguys with guns.

[bigboywasim]

If you had a gun at least you can try to shoot back. Just give him the beer. If you think he will still shoot you then try to do something. If not then just give him the beer, get away and call the cops.

[treelizard]

You can't solve a problem with guns. Period. Infact, you can't solve a problem by weapons either.

I beg to differ.

http://www.coastalpost.com/98/1/18.htm

[blitz]

They should let people carry firearms in America. That way things like this would not happen.

The way it looks from the passage, he didn't have time to pull his firearm out.

[darrianation]

nice ruse!

[darrianation]

Complying in no way shape or form guarantees you safety. Personally I’d give him the beer and work in some form of distraction like dropping it during the transfer and depending on the range grab his gun or go for mine…there are a lot of what ifs here to say what exactly I’d do.

But the bottom line is beer is not worth dieing over (well at least for most of us).

But keep this in mind many violent criminals when asked what they fear the most say it is the armed citizen not the police not jail.

[treelizard]

They should let people carry firearms in America. That way things like this would not happen.

I happen to know someone who was murdered in Liverpool over a cigarette. He's not the only one.

[jubaji]

They should let people carry firearms in America. That way things like this would not happen.

If the victim in this case had a gun, or the criminal had good reason to believe he would, there is a very good chance no one would have been shot in this case (or better yet, that the criminal would have been).