greyhound security guard uses jiu jitsu on suspect

[DickHardman]

guy didnt pay his fare, so he tries to bounce. security guard takes him down, takes his back, puts his hooks in and chokes the guy out. when the guy comes to he has no clue whats going on lol......

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=397_1187905672

[kingoftheforest]

????? Bit much.

I didn't see the guard take him down or the perp fight back. I say someone try and run away bust his ass the lay there. Then I say the guard roll him and choke him with less resistance than I have seen in a class room. All the guard had to do was hold him down and cuff his hands. There were three other guards there to help and it was apparent that the perp was going to stay in a ball on the floor. The guard even gets in the way while the perp is trying to let them cuff him.

I'd call that extremely excessive for a guy that just tried to run out on a fare not hold the place up with a gun.

[DickHardman]

I didn't see the guard take him down or the perp fight back. I say someone try and run away bust his ass the lay there. Then I say the guard roll him and choke him with less resistance than I have seen in a class room. All the guard had to do was hold him down and cuff his hands. There were three other guards there to help and it was apparent that the perp was going to stay in a ball on the floor. The guard even gets in the way while the perp is trying to let them cuff him.

I'd call that extremely excessive for a guy that just tried to run out on a fare not hold the place up with a gun.

i agree, the security guard was probably just trying to look like a tough guy, or a badass. once the guy was on the floor, he wasnt trying to fight back and he offered his hands up to be cuffed. but you know how it is nowdays with ufc being popular and all, everyone feels the need to be a matt hueghs any chance they get.

[kingoftheforest]

could you imagine if that guy had had a knife in his pocket. That guard would have been so f*ed up with all kinds of lacerations on his arms and maybe a stabbed kidney.

[DickHardman]

the security guard kept the choke hold on well after the guy had given up. i am a jiu jitsu practitioner myself, i would have eased up on the choke as soon as the guy had given up. all you are trying to do is get the guy to comply, he didnt attack you so why seek some kind of revenge or violent consequence??? yeah he committed a crime, but not one serious enough to make me personally want to hurt him. punching out or choking out someone over a $1.50 bus pass is not worth it to me personally.

btw, how come you always try to paint everyone who has a different view as spineless or insignificant?? always with the with us or against us attitude.

[DickHardman]

those security guards had guns and handcuffs with them. if he had attacked them or was that serious an offender i doubt they would be letting him sit there like that unrestrained, free to do whatever he pleased.

[kingoftheforest]

Brutallity don't you think.

So you are saying even though the guy stopped fighting and placed his hands in the position to be cuffed that choking him into unconsciousness possibly causing serious harm to him due to lack of oxygen to the brain was not excessive?

Not to mention prior to the choke the perp put himself on the ground in the prone position and resisted less than my 11 month old son does when I play with him, that it was ok to throw the choke on him till he passed out. Mind you he tried more than a couple of times to give up?

He may have been breaking the law and he did try to run but the only people you can resist arrest from are the cops. So unless those guys were transit authority he was just running from rent a cops. Now they were not carrying side arms so I have to assume they were not transit authority. He didn't attack anyone and once again tried to give up several times so if you feel that it was justified you are entitled to your opinion but I hope you never train any security or LEO's in my area because jerks like that guy are the reason people hate Cops and rent-a-cops. That was just a macho dick with a name tag not even a badge. That's just my opinion though and we are all entitled to think what we want.

I feel law breakers should suffer the repercussions of their actions but if they give up and try to let the authorities take them in I feel that it falls under the "serve and protect" which I belive is on every LEO's badge. Otherwise if you beat someone who is just letting you take them you are no better than the thugs you are supposed to be protecting people from.

Just my opinion there.

[kingoftheforest]

Everyone has one.

Thank you for that input while some of what you say does in fact make sense, I still feel that choking the guy into unconsciousness was unnecessary and as I posted above that's just my opinion.

While I do criticize MMA in the way you mentioned above my critique of this incident on those terms would then begin with the actual take down and choke method, but that's not what this thread is about so I will stick to rule number 2 and stay on track.

I appreciate you sharing your opinion and taking the time to accept mine and show me how our views differ. I believe that everyone should watch this video and formulate their own opinions from what they see because after all that is the basis of a debate. Thank you for taking the time to read my post and reply to my thoughts I can see your point of view here and understand that you have had to deal with this on a daily basis more than I have with your job as mall security however I still feel it was a little rougher than necessary.

Thank You

[DickHardman]

While I do criticize MMA in the way you mentioned above my critique of this incident on those terms would then begin with the actual take down and choke method, but that's not what this thread is about so I will stick to rule number 2 and stay on track.

actually this would be a good discussion. you mentioned you didnt like how the guy was taken down and choked as it left the security guy in a bad position should the suspect have pulled a knife out of his pocket or something.

in your opinion what would have been a better/safer way to deal with the guy?

[DickHardman]

the suspect definitely could have been controlled and apprehended from the top.

when people train in jiu jitsu for SD reasons, they should focus on keeping the top position at all costs. you fight tooth and nail to stay on top, that should be the focus inmop. thats why i believe this guy just wanted to show off some of the stuff he had learned in his bjj class.

[kingoftheforest]

OMG did the Cubs just win a series ring?

KOTF,
Admittedly, I am every bit as biased toward the security guys as others may be toward the crook, because I've spent many years working in and around that industry. The possibility always exists that I'm totally full of it, and Lord knows it wouldn't be the first time. I just really do believe that we are waaaay to easy on criminals in this society, and that we are often far too concerned with the rights of criminals and not nearly willing enough to stand up for our own rights. I for one believe that if someone steals from me, I have every right to beat their ass, whether or not they apologize. I think if someone assaults me, they deserve whatever I can dish out in return. If it's more than they anticipated, tough nuts. If they give up along the way, oh well. They made a decision, and now it's time to live with the consequences of said decision. The real challenge is making sure that dishing out justice is motivated by a sense of right, and not a sense of vengeance. That is always the real challenge, whether justice is dished out by the courts, or by the individual. If I see a man beating an old lady, like that mugger in New York, for example, I would think that a good, solid, memorable ass-whuppin would be deserved. Hell, if someone shot the guy to protect the old lady, that would probably be deserved. But if someone stalked the guy after they knew the old lady was okay and then gunned him down, that might be excessive. Point is, I think we all have a right, and in many cases a responsibility, to right the wrongs we witness. I think we'd be a stronger, more moral society as a whole if we "raised our children as a village" instead of pawning off every infraction on the cops and the courts. At risk of dredging up long-dead nonsense, it's that core belief that makes me willing to pop a guy in the mouth for crossing the line instead of letting someone else handle it, and it's the very same core belief that makes me willing to accept a pop in the mouth if I go too far as well. But I understand differences in attitudes, beliefs, and upbringing.

This post I have to say I almost completely agree with. (Did the ground just get really cold to anyone else, is that Satan checking his thermostat?). I do feel that some people in society get stiffed hard by justice and some people (Linsay Lohan) get off waaaaay to easy. But I feel it is also the responsibility of law enforcement and security to know when too much is too much. There was no need to choke the perp out in this case he could of held him easily without applying so much pressure. I understand protecting yourself when handling a criminal like that but he didn't need to choke him into unconsciousness, he could of made it very uncomfortable for the guy and if the perp started to resists then locked down on him. But I do see your point and adrenaline does sometimes make us go a little harder than we intend to.
So I'll go as far as to say maybe the guard didn't realize how tight he had the hold on the slippery little urchin.

[jubaji]

I absolutely can't believe pUke hasn't chimed in on this one yet.

[kingoftheforest]

Why? What immunity does he have?

I absolutely can't believe pUke hasn't chimed in on this one yet.

The Rules of this forum are as followed.
1. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS
2. Inappropriate content will not be tolerated.
3. Off Topic Posts will be moved or deleted.
4. Spammers will be BAN without warning
5. Stupidity, Idiocy, or hostility to towards any moderator or administrator will
result in that member being BAN without warning!!!!
6. Threats made to any member of the forum will result in that member being
BAN.

I will do this on my own, and will not even bother to consult Mr. Brewer or Mr. Mousel on this. I refuse to read childish nonsense spread throughout the forum.

These rules maybe amended and applied retroactively at anytime by, any and all moderators or Mr. Mousel.

Are we really going to continue to let this happen. I really have to ask with no disrespect why the moderates are tolerating this kind of nonsense. I know for a fact people have had a temp ban put on them on this forum for "disruptive" posts. Is jubaji really the Lindsay Lohan of Defend.net.

This is the second thread he has come in to disrupt when two people are having an adult conversation, with a forum Super Moderator no less, and frankly I feel that something needs to be done because this is just the type of nonsense that caused a huge breakdown of this forum in the past.

We have all been keeping civil conversations here and I have to ask why we should have to put up with this kind of foolishness when the rules clearly state that this will NOT be tolerated? Uke hasn't even posted in this thread!

I believe this falls under

1. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS
2. Inappropriate content will not be tolerated.
3. Off Topic Posts will be moved or deleted.
5. Stupidity, Idiocy, or hostility to towards any moderator or administrator will
result in that member being BAN without warning!!!!

So is there a dual justice system on defend? Because I am sure we are all tired of seeing the rules broken by jubaji and him going unpunished.

This nonsense already ruined one really great thread why should it ruin another thread for us? Why?

[jubaji]

Well, now that despite his rather checkered past here vis-a-vis disruptive contributions KOTF has become the forum's moral watch dog I think its only fair that he be made a moderator. That way his divine light can shine more brightly for all to see.

Until then he can STFU

Now to elaborate on my previous comments, it would seem that skills some would poo-poo because they don't fit a predetermined dogma about what can possibly work in what circumstance, this guard for good or ill employed certain skills that he had probably trained for some time. There will be some who "what if" a situation like this to death, and I guess that's the fun of hypotheticals; they never run out and they can't be tested after the fact. If the guard's reaction was excessive, maybe that's another reason not to run out on your bus fare. I'm sure this particular slimeball's circle of scumbags will hear all about it and perhaps think twice about pulling such a stunt at this particular terminal.

[jubaji]

I have had one time (only one) where getting to the guy's back and rolling him on top of me was a big help in keeping me from getting stomped by the guy's buddies. In that instance, I didn't want to be on the ground, but I ended up there, and in much the same position as we saw on the video. I had to roll the guy on top of me while choking him in order to use him as something of a "human shield" against the crowd that was still standing and brawling. Just one more instance where no matter how much we dislike a tool, there may be a time and place when it's exactly what we need.

I agree with this, and await KOTF's ruling as to whether that agreement violates one of the holy commandments.