another school shooting

[treelizard]

Of course there's a difference between getting suspended and getting locked up for fighting in the severity of the punishment, but if you're judging it solely based on the outcome (as you indicated), there's really not that much of a difference. Sometimes people shape up, often they do not. I'm not entirely convinced that more serious consequences always stop the behavior.

Don't juvie records disappear when you turn 18?

[treelizard]

We have a discipline matrix at my school with four different levels... Level 4 violations include assault on school personnel or assault/fighting resulting in serious injury or possession of weapons. Level 3 includes assault, fighting, bullying or intimidation. In either case, the police are contacted, students are suspended and there is a parent conference. Level 4 offenses require a long-term hearing. Horseplay is relegated to level 1, however...and sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between horseplay and fighting. I'm still not exactly clear on it.

As far as quantifying whether actions taken stop the bullying, and if not, no one is "dealing with it"--well there are a lot of people in and out of jail for all kinds of violent crimes and I'm guessing that not many of them reform. So if the consequences don't work, does that mean that the police (etc.) are simply reacting to it but not dealing with it?

I am really pleased with the discipline system in my school, but it certainly doesn't stop bullying or violence...or there wouldn't be any need for the consequences.

[treelizard]

There is no evidence that specifically suggests this was a 3rd or 4th offense, but there isn't anything to suggest it isn't either. Students are protected by FERPA (privacy) laws so it's not like we can pull his file. THIS article makes it sound like he was more often the victim of bullying, however.

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071012/NEWS01/710120357

I don't know how to quantify "it doesn't happen that way as much as it should." I can't think of a single teacher that ignores bullying, though. And the fact that teachers can't send kids to jail or make them do community service or whatnot doesn't mean they don't want to. We're not even allowed to make kids sit on the floor or do push-ups due to parent complaints and phone calls...

I just met with a parent the other day who I told to come to my class with her son so she could see the way he behaves. She said she thought his behavior in class was our fault because we're not strict enough with him... so where does she fit in? She also said it was not her responsibility to see that he gets to school after she sends him out... Hmmm... Whose responsibility is it then?

Students in my district can and do have charges filed against them. It would be impossible to file charges against every single student that behaves inappropriately, though, but if it goes to the administrative level they do use legal terminology in recording it... Many of our kids (as was this Cleveland kid) are on probation already.

In my school, if detentions and parent conferences and suspensions don't work, students get expelled. It takes a while to get to that point but it does happen. We try to avoid it because the kids will probably end up dealing drugs and joining gangs and such, and we follow a pretty specific discipline matrix (so that nobody is getting expelled over not having a pencil in class), but in the words of one of my favorite administrators "you can only give so many chances." So there it is.

Of course, people will whine and complain if we discipline students, if we don't discipline students, if we follow district procedure, if we don't follow procedure, etc. Teachers are supposed to decide who may be potentially dangerous or liable to commit crimes in school and can be sent to jail for not mentioning those suspicions. They are well aware of that--at least around these parts. Whether or not the administration or whoever is assigned to take care of discipline follows through or not is often out of teacher's hands, and they often have reasons for how they handle things. I wish I knew exactly how things went down in that school in Cleveland, but I know that at V-Tech teachers had definitely voiced concerns that weren't addressed...

[treelizard]

One more thing, though... In the article I post, the situation WAS dealt with. The kid was suspended for fighting. Before a student is suspended, it is likely that their parents have already been contacted, meetings have been had, detentions etc. have been assigned, students have already been talked to and other interventions have been made. I fail to see how the school in question was ignoring bullying.

[treelizard]

The problem is that there are school policies for handling bullying, fighting, etc. and they most often entail sending BOTH people out for consequences despite who started it. Then people other than teachers deal with it. Teachers can relay what happened as they saw it, and check to see if people follow through but that's about the extent of it.

[Tom Yum]

Sounds good, Mike!!

I've thought about the exact same thing, if I have kids. I'm going to teach them muaythai and grappling; not just as a hobby & exercise but also so they can take care of business.

We had an intermural wrestling team in middle school (unfortunately my highschool got a wrestling team about 2 years after I graduated). All of the type-A personality kids joined and we used to settle scores that way, in front of the coach and with some rules.

The mat was a wonderful equalizer.

[treelizard]

It depends. I think some kids could watch horror films and play video games and turn out fine whereas for others it might be a problem. I think the problem is different for each individual, and I think it's difficult for teachers and even parents sometimes to really see the whole story... I notice this when I am meeting with parents to talk about a student's behavior. After hearing how they act in three other classes, how they act at home and what is going on I usually have a much better sense of what is going on... i.e. This kid is on probation and on drugs and his brother just died, this kid got really behind when his parents were in the hospital and didn't catch up, this kid does work in one class but not others and the variable is possibly xyz, this kid is engaging in attention-seeking behavior, this kid has brothers in jail and in gangs.

There is not just one clearcut solution that will work across the board, only a variety of approaches that require looking at each child as an individual... The problem is that it takes a lot of effort to get every possible person together to do that. I spent three hours with a parent the other day along with a variety of other people including teachers. I can't do that for every one of my 125 students. We attempt to replicate it as a teaching team by meeting with every single parent in one of our classes and relaying information from other teachers that have that student, but if parents don't want to meet all the outreach in the world won't help. And some parents have no transportation. It really is a conundrum. And while there are specific people that I can call on to provide support and discipline intervention for students who I think really need it, it would have to be a small number.

Ultimately I think the responsibility of teachers is to teach. Research shows that only 50% of what goes on in the classroom is instruction. The rest of the time is filled up with various distractions, and management/discipline is a big part of that time. Right now many teachers are working very hard on writing tests that allow us to see student thought process. That means all essay tests and short response. These are harder to grade but are more useful in providing instructional intervention for students that need it or enrichment activities to help students that "get it" achieve mastery. Between writing cohesive unit plans, lesson plans and tests, using the information received to make changes for specific and timely (academic) intervention and everything else that needs to be done, it's hard to take on responsibility for monitoring the actions of 125 kids.

For example...This weekend, I have to finish entering and posting grades, grade about 60 writing tests, work on assessment questions and bridge activities for some unit design for my team, write sub plans for next week for some classes I need to miss during a training, buy materials for a lesson on Monday, create a folder to demo for Monday's folder check so people will need to see what the material they are responsible for turning in looks like (focusing on 21st century learning skills), create a rubric so students can start scoring their own effort (we are creating effort/achievement logs so they can start to see the correlation between the two, which research shows they don't get at that age), create new worksheets because the ones from the materials we have suck. I'm also working on looking at students who are at risk for failing this standardized test they have to take so I can provide specific skills they each need to work on for Wednesday (my reteach to the test day) which takes a long time because it is different for each student. I am trying to group it so that I won't go insane having to teach 31 kids 31 different things. THEN I have about fifteen parents to call, many of which will not be home or will not return the phone call (although I give them my work, home AND cell phone number), and many of which will not speak English. I can give THOSE names to our student involvement coordinator, but it's not quite the same. This is in addition to all the other crap I want to do this weekend (pay bills, do laundry, bake cookies, work out, do my dishes, spend some time with my neighbor and my boyfriend, go to an event this weekend, do some volunteer work). Knowing that I am doing the best I can, if a student falls through the cracks while I am doing all this, I'm not going to feel personally responsible. They likely had interactions with about 100 other teachers up until now, not to mention their parents and any other adults available to them. I can't speak for all teachers but I think MANY of them are doing the best they can.

I will say that I'd rather spend the majority of my time working on this: http://cs1.mcm.edu/~awyatt/csc3315/bloom.htm
and on this:

http://www.21stcenturyskills.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=195&Itemid=112#what_framework

rather than this:

http://www.loveandlogic.com/pages/classroom.html

[Tom Yum]

The libs want to take our guns and repubs too like Giuliani but they don't seem to mind when Hollyweird makes brutally violent movies and parents don't seem to want to monitor or restrict what their kids watch or what video games they play. Parents don’t want to punish their kids for getting in fights at school or staying out past their curfew, or even setting a curfew. Coupled that with the example their own parents are setting with their own lack of discipline among other factors that add up to a generation of kids with no self-restraint.

You hit the nail on the head!

I get into some heated discussions with more liberal folks about this. They want to give kids the RIGHT to watch violent, disturbing stuff on video or t.v. and don't seem to understand how this (and other factors as well) contribute to these Columbine-like shootouts.

I also agree that parents let too much stuff slide these days.

[treelizard]

Classroom management has definitely been an exercise in nailing jello to the wall. After ten weeks of trial and error, I feel like I am finally maybe getting somewhere.

Jubaji's the expert.

[darrianation]

I saved that document to my computer so I can read it later.

As a parent myself of one preteen and a 9 year old I certainly make mistakes and at times have no idea how to handle certain situations.

My 9 year old has been in two fights at school this year (he is in 3rd grade), I am aghast because when we talk about these issues he certainly knows what to do and ways of handling these situations without violence but when the time comes he simply looses his temper and makes the wrong decisions.

He has to know there will be consequences for his actions. We talk about what happened and what he could have done differently that would have lead to a different more preferable outcome. We also sat down with his teacher and principle and discussed these same issues (I called for the conference because they didn’t ask to see me or my wife). At home he is grounded from going to his friends houses, the computer, and the XBOX, he also lost his Halloween party he has been anxiously planning, and given extra chores to do.

At home he is also responsible for his behavior, his dealings with his sister, he has chores he is assigned to around the house, a bedtime, a wake up time, etc, that he is very good at following. I spend a lot of time away from home and that maybe the biggest factor.

I am dedicated to staying home more and I am volunteering in his class room 2 days a week hoping this will make a difference.

Whenever there is a problem at school rather it is behavior or academics or something else my wife and I work with the teachers to get things back on track. We keep in contact with their teachers through phone calls, emails, and meetings. My wife is on some parent board at the Jr. High and we encourage our kids to play sports, my daughter is in student council and 4H, my son is on a private wrestling team (AAU) and cub scouts, and both kids are on the swimming team AAU. My daughter does volunteer work with cultural center where she has worked on bat surveys studying bats, building trails, and doing archeology. The hope is they stay busy and make friendships with kids that will hopefully be positive influences.

We also have a family day once a week, for example later today we will take the kids go-cart riding, play mini golf, and eat at there favorite restaurant Serious Texas BBQ.

Many families are single parent homes but even so not very many seem to take great interest in their kids. The teachers at both the Jr. High and the elementary school where my son goes often tell us that they wished more parents would be as involved with their children’s education and parent interest and involvement seems rather rare.

I think setting rules, setting boundaries for behavior and enforcing those rules and boundaries consistently with appropriate consequences and being genuinely interested and involved with your kids is the most important thing you can do as a parent. This may not solve every problem and no parent is perfect but we can always do a better job if we truly care to.

BTW, the teachers told us that in both fights the other kid started it and shoved him first but fighting is fighting and both paricpents are equally guilty.

[treelizard]

I agree that part of the problem is not enough discipline, but I think the WAY you discipline is also important. If children don't get that you're doing it to help them, they're just going to keep doing the same things in a sneakier way... I'm a fan of Love and Logic... Check this out: http://www.loveandlogic.com/pdfs/research_data_bllp.pdf

[darrianation]

I think many of these problems begin at home even in well meaning homes where the parents are good people.

Let's face it adults in general these days are less disciplined than a generation ago. Can we expect their children to be more disciplined? No. I think folks in general are pretty comfortable about passing the buck, it is always someone else’s fault and do not take responsibility for their own actions.

As far as school shootings go their are many variables, I don’t' think it can be linked to one single thing, what set of circumstances that caused one young man to pull the trigger, is totally different set of another to shoot.

The libs want to take our guns and repubs too like Giuliani but they don't seem to mind when Hollyweird makes brutally violent movies and parents don't seem to want to monitor or restrict what their kids watch or what video games they play. Parents don’t want to punish their kids for getting in fights at school or staying out past their curfew, or even setting a curfew. Coupled that with the example their own parents are setting with their own lack of discipline among other factors that add up to a generation of kids with no self-restraint

I think there is plenty of blame to go around but it is only going to get worse as these kids grow up and start having kids with even less discipline than they had…it is a cycle and a continuum of factors that lead to these types of tragedies.

[treelizard]

I will say that it's difficult to build relationships with every student in an overcrowded classroom... The ones who I know the best are those who act out, though, and when I meet with their parents I find out they're on probation for drug use, they just lost someone close to them, etc... The parents often say things like "I have no idea what to do."

Here's some more about the shooter:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/11/cleveland.shooting/index.html

I've never heard of teachers getting sued because they are concerned about a child but there are specific reasons why teachers as mandatory reporters are not allowed to ask certain personal questions so as to aid in prosecution. It's pretty frustrating because you are only allowed to ask "what happened" and "where were you when it happened" and are of course legally obligated to contact both CPS and the police, but when you call CPS and the police, investigation is often deemed unnecessary. I'm not really sure what lawsuits would take place for asking any other types of questions... and besides, most teachers have pretty good insurance.

I think it's possible to focus on both testing standards and personal development, but often the students that need it most are the most resistant...

I've been really focusing on quality work lately, going around the room and asking "Is this your best work?" and telling students they need to raise their standards... I'm trying to reinforce effort by having students keep track of effort and achievement. So on some level this is about getting their reading and writing on par but on another it's because research shows that many students don't understand the correlation between effort and achievement... and I think it's pretty important.

I do think it's difficult to be a parent figure to 150 students. While I think building relationships with students is important both for managing a classroom and for creating a positive learning environment, I see my ultimate responsibility as a teacher to help students master performance objectives, learn higher levels of thinking and 21st century learning skills... And honestly, the ones that need positive adult role models in their lives are the ones least likely to reach out or respond when teachers reach out.

One of my kids is on long-term suspension for many many things he did in a short period of time, but the day before his last screw-up we sat and talked for close to an hour. He wrote me an apology letter. We worked out a behavior contract. We had what I thought was a meaningful conversation and then the next day he was up to his old antics again. There are only so many chances you can give someone. It's funny because I worry about my car getting jacked one of these days...

[Ghost]

You don't think any of this exists outside the U.S. except the stuff Tree posted.

Is what you meant to say.

no, the rest of the world is debating as to why this keeps happening in the US, its been all over radio shows and tv. so im asking the same question. i know it does happen elsewhere, but its often referred to as an american phenomenon because the rate at which it happens in the US is FAR beyond other 1st world countries and specifically affecting white middle class kids/schools more than anyone else.

im asking a social related question, not pissing on the US.

[gregimotis]

i dont think any of this exists outside of the states so something is causing this socially.

You don't think any of this exists outside the U.S. except the stuff Tree posted.

Is what you meant to say.