No announcement yet.

another college shooting

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • treelizard
    Go Arizona!!

    Bill: Guns the cure for school shootings
    Unarmed students, teachers 'sitting ducks,' legislator says
    By Howard Fischer
    Capitol Media Services
    Tucson, Arizona | Published: 02.19.2008

    PHOENIX — Sen. Karen Johnson said she believes the tragedy last week at Northern Illinois University would have been avoided, or at least would have been less tragic, if faculty members and students had been armed.

    The Mesa Republican on Monday urged colleagues to approve her legislation, which would partially repeal existing laws and regulations banning weapons on campuses of public schools, community colleges and universities. Her proposal, SB 1214, allows those who have a state permit to carry a concealed weapon, which means they must be 21 or older, to have a gun on campus.
    Johnson said without weapons, students and teachers are "sitting ducks."
    The police chiefs of the three state universities, however, all told members of the Senate Judiciary Committee more guns on campus actually could result in more deaths.

    University of Arizona Police Chief Anthony Daykin said situations with an armed shooter are difficult enough. But he said it would be worse if every time there were a threat, five or six people would pull out guns, each perhaps thinking the others are potential assailants.

    "What kind of carnage might we have?" he asked.

    And Bryan Soller, president of the Arizona Fraternal Order of Police, told lawmakers they have to look at the situation through the eyes of police officers responding to the scene and seeking someone with a weapon.
    "We say, 'Police!' He goes, 'What?' It's over," said Soller, a Mesa police sergeant. "He's going to get shot immediately because if we see a threat, we're going to take him out."

    But much of the debate, and the likely fate of the measure when it comes up for a vote next week, centered on the question of whether more guns might have altered the outcome of last week's incident at NIU, where a gunman killed five and wounded 16 before taking his own life.

    John Pickens, Arizona State University's police chief, had a unique perspective, telling lawmakers he served at NIU before coming to Arizona.
    "I don't think there is a solution to the violence we're seeing on campus," he said. "No preparation can prevent an incident."

    The best answer, he said, is proper training, not only of police but also of people in the campus community.

    Johnson said having police respond, even quickly, is not the answer.

    "It's who's there at the time and is ready and available to take care of the situation," she said. If someone with a concealed weapon were available and already on the scene, Johnson said, "he'd be able to know who it was and, excuse the expression, plug them."

    But Pickens said having multiple armed people when police respond to a chaotic scene only makes resolving the situation more difficult.

    "How are we going to determine the target?" he asked. "That's where the confusion comes."

    Johnson also cited a study after last year's shootings at Virginia Tech, which left 32 dead.

    "There were at least 60 different points in the attack where a defender of average skill could have easily neutralized the threat of the active shooter," she said. "What is worse than allowing an execution-style massacre to continue uncontested?"

    Greg Fowler of Northern Arizona University said having multiple people armed would only slow police response. He said officers would need to stop and question everyone with a weapon fleeing a building to ensure that the shooter does not also escape.

    Johnson countered that not having weapons on hand ignores the reality of what can happen when there is a report of a gun on a school campus and a "lockdown" is ordered.

    "They're in that classroom alone with those students," she said of teachers.
    "A crazed person comes through that door; they can protect those students," Johnson continued. "Otherwise, they're nothing but sitting ducks."

    Her view was backed by Rick Dalton, a former Mesa police officer who now teaches history at a charter school. He said allowing teachers to be armed would allow them to "turn the odds" when someone invades a school and starts shooting.

    And UA student Jason Lewis, who has a concealed-weapons permit, told lawmakers he's not concerned about the risk of being shot if police burst into a room looking for a shooter. He said it should be "pretty obvious" who is the real assailant.

    And if not?

    "If the officers are trigger-happy, that's their problem — and mine," Lewis said.

    Dave Kopp, president of the Arizona Citizens Defense League, said the whole concern about letting people who have concealed-weapons permits have their guns on campus is overblown.

    He said 40 states, including Arizona, already let people carry concealed weapons most other places.

    "There has not been blood in the streets; there have not been shootouts; people are not gunning each other down," he said.

    And Gary Christensen of the Arizona State Rifle and Pistol Association said SB 1214 would not lead to a proliferation of weapons on campuses.
    He said about 100,000 Arizonans now have concealed-weapons permits, out of more than 6.6 million people in the state. Using that figure, Christensen said, perhaps fewer than 1,000 students on the three campuses might be armed.

    Leave a comment:

  • DickHardman
    Originally posted by Mike Brewer

    John McClane was the baddest movie cop ever.

    please........Axle Foley was way better than john mcclane.


    Leave a comment:

  • warrior_artist
    Originally posted by DickHardman View Post
    maybe thats cause you watched too many 80's and early 90's action movies like rambo, die hard, under siege etc.....
    Whatever. That's such the knee-jerk reaction to strong role models. I don't need to justify why I run 100mph towards the sound of gunfire. It's what I, and many others like me, train for everyday. I don't think it might happen, I'm just waiting for it TO happen. There will always be evil people in this world, that will never change. So why is it suddenly attributed to "violent" movies, or some psychological disorder, when someone desires to be a tool in the solution against evil?

    What a mind-set to have against those who desire to fight against evil. Soldiers, police officers, and others who fight against the darker elements with and without weapons run towards the sounds of the gunfire, while every other creature runs away. It's not a morally superior position, but think about life if those who actually choose to run to the gunfire...didn't.

    It's a righteous desire. It's like a trained K-9. The reward for training is the bite. There is nothing wrong with a warrior who trains day in and day out to desire to be useful when needed. Why else do you train? For looks?

    I don't know about you, but I don't like bad guys. I'm glad there are men and women who run towards the gunfire, either as a job or because they can (armed citizens). Your world would be a different place if not for men and women who run to the gunfire.

    And, for the record, John McLane is the freaking coolest movie cop ever. Would there be more who would choose to act when placed in his situation rather than sit, cry, and hope the bad guy doesn't feel like killing you today.

    Now not every violent movie has a honorable role model. But, that's for a different thread.

    I'm sick and tired of hearing media and those without a clue talk about those who choose to be the masters of their own destiny by owning a gun or training to fight as having some sort of complex! It is natural and perfectly normal to not want to let someone else decide whether you live or die today.

    If someone pulls a gun on me and tries to steal my wallet. I'm going to draw my gun and shoot him. I may get shot, but it's going to be because I made the choice and not because I thought I might try and rely on the "goodwill" of the badguy and hope he doesn't shoot me if I give him my wallet. Who's to say he doesn't shoot me after I give him what he wants. I could care less what he wants. I'm not going to put my trust in him. I trust myself and my judgment.

    If the guys wants a gunfight, he'll get one. I doubt that's what he'll be expecting when he points his gun at me and demands my wallet. What he'll get is aggression and a fight more than he bargained for.

    People often think that a handgun is a fight ender. You have to remember the handgun is horrendously poor at killing. A rifle is a much better choice. You can take rounds. Unless it's a computer chip shot, you can suck up the bullets and fight, if you have the will.

    You might die, but you should be thinking you'll be taking the other guy with you. You should also have a mentality like this quote:

    "In my mind, I'm never going to die in no ghetto. Absolutely never. If a man tries to punch me in the head, the fight is on. If he cuts me, the fight is on. If I'm shot, the fight is on. I'm not losing no fight to no scumbag out there in no ghetto. Period. That's it. No son-of-a-bitch out there is going to get me. The only he gets me is to cut my head off, and I mean that. I'll fight you while I got a breath left in me. I've gone that way for 18 years of street service, street duty, and that's the way I'm going to keep on going. You don't lose the fight."

    --Jim Phillips, Calibre Press video, Surviving Edged Weapons, 1988.

    That doesn't just apply to cops. It applies to anyone who lives and is glad to be alive.

    Denial is a slick poison. It kills you twice. First, by denying you the mentality to train and prepare yourself in advance. Second, it kills you by robbing you of ability to act in the deadly fight. The shock to the system that has denied for long will be too great to overcome.

    Remember you won't rise to the occasion in a deadly force encounter. Instead, you will fall to the highest level of training you've had and prepared for.

    And what you do in preparation for the once in a lifetime encounter will determine whether you will have a rest of a lifetime to tell about it.

    But, you can go on thinking that everyone that has the righteous desire to fight evil as having watched too many 80's and 90's movies. The warrior culture has always had heroes to inspire the next generation. What a sad state the warrior culture would find itself in if the next generation had no heroes to look up to and were told they were deranged from watching too many movies.

    I'm not about defanging our warriors. If a warrior has a good role model, real or not, what benefit to that warrior! Mankind, the warrior class, has always had role models real and imaginary. The knights of old, the samurai, the tales from the greek warriors (Spartans), romans, and native americans. I could go on.

    It's healthy to have a role model. Something to look up to. I like to read accounts of police officers involved in gunfights where they got shot up pretty bad, but they still fought and won. Why? It's mental ammunition and armor. I can tell myself if they can do, so can I, and so can you! You just have to ask yourself, how strong is your will to live?


    Leave a comment:

  • DickHardman
    Originally posted by warrior_artist View Post

    Everytime I hear about something like this I just think, wish I was there. And I know I'm not alone when I think that.
    maybe thats cause you watched too many 80's and early 90's action movies like rambo, die hard, under siege etc.....

    Leave a comment:

  • warrior_artist
    They're proposing some legislation in Arizona right now allowing CCW holders to carry concealed on campus. I hope it passes.

    Everytime I hear about something like this I just think, wish I was there. And I know I'm not alone when I think that.

    Leave a comment:

  • Liberty
    Originally posted by Mike Brewer
    I'm telling you, if we arm everybody, this shit will stop. Or at least the next few headlines will read far differently. I'm not trying to disrespect those involved, but can you imagine how much of a relief it would be to hear that a bunch of armed students and teachers stopped a gunman before he could injure anyone?
    Arm students - you're kidding, right? I can just see it, kids having shoot outs and showdowns at "High Noon." Ambushing each other, etc. Have you not learned anything from the Wild West's gun play days? Wherein criminals still committed their crimes though everyone was armed.

    Also, do you really think that kids who commit these murders, as prepared and psyched up as they sometimes are, would not have prepared for "armed students," and teachers, had such been the norm?

    There is no easy answer to this. Criminals being the conniving beings they are, adjust as well as we do.

    Leave a comment:

  • DickHardman
    female pulls gun on armed robbers

    02/17/08 Longview TX
    An armed robber walks into an East Texas convenience store and fires at a clerk point blank, but the clerk fights back with gunfire of her own.
    Around 10:30 Saturday night, a man walked into the E-Z Food Mart on North 4th Street with a gun and fired.

    Like she does everyday Longview clerk Robin Adams helped a customer Saturday night, but then a man runs in with a gun and points it at her head. For Adams, 37 it was the most frightening moment of her life.

    "As soon as I raised up, all I saw was the barrel of his gun," said Adams. "He didn't ask for money. He didn't speak, he just wanted to shoot me, and I don't know why." With only a second to react, Adams said she ducked to the right as the shot is fired. Miraculously, the bullet misses, tears through a cigarette pack and out a plate glass window.

    "All I was thinking at this point is like, I'm going to be shot in a split second, and I ducked to the right an he did shoot," said Adams. Adams' spilt second decision to lean to the right is what saved her life. The bullet that exited through this glass window was aimed at her head. In another second Adams makes a gutsy move and grabs a 32 pistol under the counter and fights back.

    "He immediately ducked and ran out the door," said Adams. "I just followed him with the gun and shot." The suspect runs for the door and Adams fire, but a metal bar blocks the bullet.

    "I looked at that glass window, and all I could think of was that could have been my skull and my children would have had their mother in a closed casket.

    The suspect is described as a black male, about 5-feet 4-inches tall, weighing around 140 to 150 pounds. He was wearing a dark colored hooded sweatshirt, a baseball cap with a red bandana over his face and blues jeans.

    Leave a comment:

  • Garland
    Originally posted by DickHardman View Post
    yeah, pretty much. i like to post it on threads that are about kids shooting up their schools or committing other violent acts, or threads were garland is getting out some of his teen angst.

    Leave a comment:

  • DickHardman
    Originally posted by Mike Brewer
    Are you going to post that same picture every time a thread about guns or a shooting comes up? Just curious, because that dude's crazy eyes haunt my dreams...
    yeah, pretty much. i like to post it on threads that are about kids shooting up their schools or committing other violent acts, or threads were garland is getting out some of his teen angst.

    Leave a comment:

  • DickHardman
    bad times.

    unfortunately these incidents just make people fear guns even more, instead of making them realize that guns could have reduced this kids body count.

    Leave a comment:

  • treelizard
    Evil does not stop until it is stopped.

    Leave a comment:

  • FitnessRubber
    i didn't hear about it until this morning, but... damn...

    Leave a comment:

  • treelizard
    started a topic another college shooting

    another college shooting

    7 dead in N. Illinois U. hall shooting By CARYN ROUSSEAU and DEANNA BELLANDI, Associated Press Writers
    30 minutes ago

    DEKALB, Ill. - Another person shot when a gunman opened fire at a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University has died, bringing the toll to seven, including the gunman, a coroner said Friday.


    Investigators and school officials did not immediately know why the man indiscriminately fired into the crowd with a shotgun and two handguns Thursday, wounding 15 people and sending panicked students fleeing for the exits before killing himself.

    "We have no motive and I have no way of knowing what the motive was," University Police Chief Donald Grady said.

    DeKalb County Coroner Dennis J. Miller on Friday released the identities of the four victims who died in his county: Daniel Parmenter, 20, of Westchester; Catalina Garcia, 20, of Cicero; Ryanne Mace, 19, of Carpentersville; and Julianna Gehant, 32, of Meridan.

    Two other victims died after being transfered to hospitals in other counties, Miller said in a news release.

    Winnebago County Coroner Sue Fiduccia on Friday said a female victim died in her county but has not been identified pending notification of family. An autopsy was planned for Friday, she said.

    Witnesses said the gunman, dressed in black and wearing a stocking cap, emerged from behind a screen on the stage of 200-seat Cole Hall and opened fire just as the class was about to end around 3 p.m.

    Officials said 162 students were registered for the class but it was unknown how many were there Thursday.

    Allyse Jerome, 19, a sophomore from Schaumburg, said the gunman burst through a stage door and pulled out a gun.

    "Honestly, at first everyone thought it was a joke," Jerome said. Everyone hit the floor, she said. Then she got up and ran, but tripped. She said she felt like "an open target."

    "He could've decided to get me," Jerome said Friday. "I thought for sure he was gonna get me."

    The shooter had been a graduate student in sociology at Northern Illinois as recently as spring 2007, but was not currently enrolled at the 25,000-student campus, University President John Peters said.

    Authorities did not release the gunman's name, but Peters said he had no record of police contact or an arrest record while attending Northern Illinois, about 65 miles west of Chicago.

    The Chicago Tribune, citing two unidentified law enforcement sources, reported Friday that the gunman was a graduate student at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

    Lauren Carr said she was sitting in the third row when she saw the shooter walk through a door on the right-hand side of the stage, pointing a gun straight ahead.

    "I personally Army-crawled halfway up the aisle," said Carr, a 20-year-old sophomore. "I said I could get up and run or I could die here."

    She said a student in front of her was bleeding, "but he just kept running."

    "I heard this girl scream, 'Run, he's reloading the gun!'"

    More than a hundred students cried and hugged as they gathered outside the Phi Kappa Alpha house early Friday morning to remember Dan Parmenter, the 20-year-old sophomore from Elmhurst, who was one of those killed.

    "I'm not angry," his stepfather, Robert Greer, told the Chicago Tribune. "I'm just sad, and I know that right now what I need to do is comfort my wife."

    All classes were canceled Thursday night and the campus was closed on Friday. Students were urged to call their parents "as soon as possible" and were offered counseling at any residence hall, according to the school Web site.

    The school was closed for one day during final exam week in December after campus police found threats, including racial slurs and references to shootings earlier in the year at Virginia Tech, scrawled on a bathroom wall in a dormitory. Police determined after an investigation that there was no imminent threat and the campus was reopened. Peters said he knew of no connection between that incident and Thursday's attack.


    Associated Press writers Carla K. Johnson, Michael Tarm, David Mercer, Martha Irvine, Nguyen Huy Vu, Sarah Rafi, Mike Robinson and photographer Charles Rex Arbogast contributed to this report.