The law is an ass

[Guest]

A story from the paper on the train to work this morning:

A shopkeeper, Mr Tony Singh, was leaving his place of work when he was attacked with a knife by a criminal intent on robbing his business. The attacker, Liam Kilroe had a series of offences including robbery, assault, and possessing illegal weapons. At the time he made this attack he was on bail for other offences.

Mr Singh, a completely untrained person, sustained a few minor injuries but managed to take the knife from Kilroe. A struggle ensued and Kilroe was stabbed in the chest, and later died.

So here we have a law abiding man, defending his business, his livelihood, and his life against a career criminal. He faced a lethal threat, and responded using force appropriate to that threat, using the attacker’s own weapon against him.

The Crown Prosecution Service intend to charge Mr Singh with murder

[warrior_artist]

Ouch! Where I am, based on the information provided, I don't see where any charges would be brought against Mr. Singh. I don't think there's a grand jury that would indict him, let alone a jury that would convict him. A prosecutor would have to have some severe hatred for people protecting themselves to charge him. At least, here where I am, that is.

[ttruscott]

The #1 fatal mistake people in this deadly situation make is to talk to the nice policeman before talking to a lawyer! Not just for advice but to minimize the debilitating effects of high stress due to violence (called either critical incident stress, CIS or sympathetic nervous system stress, SNS).

Since the perp died, I surmise he talked himself into his problems. This often happens when a 'victim' by boasts about his killing prowess, or talks about how he set the perp up and ambushed him somehow.

#2 is to press the 'defence' past where the danger is over into the realm of teaching the creep a lesson he won't forget, which is outside of self defence rights. This includes the "shooting at him while he was fleeing" scenario.

[DickHardman]

A story from the paper on the train to work this morning:

A shopkeeper, Mr Tony Singh, was leaving his place of work when he was attacked with a knife by a criminal intent on robbing his business. The attacker, Liam Kilroe had a series of offences including robbery, assault, and possessing illegal weapons. At the time he made this attack he was on bail for other offences.

Mr Singh, a completely untrained person, sustained a few minor injuries but managed to take the knife from Kilroe. A struggle ensued and Kilroe was stabbed in the chest, and later died.

So here we have a law abiding man, defending his business, his livelihood, and his life against a career criminal. He faced a lethal threat, and responded using force appropriate to that threat, using the attacker’s own weapon against him.

The Crown Prosecution Service intend to charge Mr Singh with murder

thats terrible man, but at least mr singh is alive. hopefully the murder charge will be dropped and he can file a fat lawsuit against those who tried to charge him for defending himself from a heartless criminal.

[Guest]

I really hope so Dick, or its just one more nail in the coffin for anyone in this country who tries to defend their life.

And we're running out of nails.

[Hardball]

Did this happen in the U.K. or Aussie?

[Guest]

UK Hardball

[Hardball]

How did i guess? God Bless the USA!!!

[Liberty]

Was able to track down the story, while searching similar cases I've heard of in North America. All is not yet lost for the guy, according to the story below. Thanks, for the story Michael.

http://prairiepundit.blogspot.com/2008/02/uk-man-faces-threat-of-procecution-for.html

Wednesday, February 20, 2008

UK man faces threat of prosecution for defending himself

Times:

A shopkeeper could be charged with murder after an armed robber who tried to steal the day’s takings was stabbed with his own knife during a struggle.

Tony Singh, 34, described as a hard-working family man who often works 13-hour days, was ambushed as he shut his shop on Sunday evening by Liam Kilroe, 25, a career criminal who was armed with a knife.

Mr Singh fought back and, after a fierce hand-to-hand struggle, Kilroe was seen by witnesses to stagger away clutching the knife to his chest. Kilroe was taken to hospital, where he died, and Mr Singh was detained by police. He is now waiting to discover whether he will be charged, and is on police bail until February 29 pending further inquiries.

Lancashire police confirmed that papers had been sent to the Crown Prosecution Service, which will decide whether Mr Singh should be charged with one of three offences: murder, manslaughter or assault.

Mr Singh, who suffered injuries to his neck and back during the struggle and had to be treated in hospital, insisted yesterday that he had acted in self-defence. The shopkeeper, who runs the Lifestyle Express general store in Skelmersdale, Lancashire, said: “I feel lucky to be alive. All I was doing was trying to stop myself getting hurt. The guy could have killed me.

“I have got some injuries to my face and I am pretty shaken up but, thankfully, I am OK and able to return to work. It could have been so much worse. If one of the wounds had gone one inch either way, then it could have been fatal for me.”

Kilroe, of Billinge, near St Helens, who had convictions stretching back nine years, was in breach of bail conditions at the time of his death. He had failed to appear in court to answer charges that he carried out armed robberies at a shop and post office with an imitation firearm. In one raid a postmaster was hit over the head with a handgun but the robbers fled empty-handed. In a second robbery, at a general shop in Croston, Leyland, they forced a woman behind the counter to open the till at gunpoint and hand over £8,000.

P.S. The following is an interesting piece on all this:

http://davekopel.org/2A/OpEds/Rowan-Case.htm

[Liberty]

How did i guess? God Bless the USA!!!

Better hold you halleluyahs a minute Hardball, the following is far from an isolated North American case:

Disabled Man Faces 6 Years for Defending Himself in Washington County...
author: Harve Fresnell e-mail: bennetfox@hotmail.com

Washington County is prosecuting a disabled, functionally blind (albino), mentally ill, low income man for Assault II, just for defending himself against an attacker in the Winco parking lot on Cedar Hills in Beaverton.

In Washington County, the DA's Office, in case number C071715CR, Brandon Todd Whitten (booking number 0709779)was indicted by grand jury on one count of Assault II (a Class C felony and a Measure 11 offense, carrying a minimum mandatory term of 5 years 10 months), today.

According to at least one eyewitness, Mr. Whitten was attacked at about 7:30 PM on the first of July near the bike racks in front of Winco Foods on Cedar Hills Boulevard in Beaverton, by a man who first may have tried to sell him drugs, then, barring that attempted to rob him, striking Mr. Whitten, then spitting on him and continuing to hit the defendant. At some point during the altercation, Mr. Whitten, who is functionally blind, defended himself by hitting his attacker with a small d-shaped bike lock. The attacker received only a slight wound to the head, was treated and released from a local hospital with a ticket, while Mr. Whitten received extensive cuts, scratches and bruises over much of his arms, as well a couple of minor head wounds and was arrested for his troubles and is currently being held on $250,000 bond. At the grand jury, yesterday, the witness physically closest to the attack who also called 911 (a friend of Mr. Whitten's who had gone with him to get waffle mix) was not called to testify (and was called a liar by the prosecutor), the arresting officer was also not called, but the "victim" (rather attacker) was.

Brandon Whitten, who is an albino, is functionally blind and sensitive to any amount of sunlight, on disability and dealing with mental illnesses such as severe anxiety and bi-polar disorder. He has no past history of violence, nor any prior criminal record.

For more information, call the Washington County Jail at (503) 846-6896 (M-F, 8:00 am to 4:00 pm) or (503) 846-6826 (weekends and evenings) for inmate information, or the Washington County District Attorney's Office at (503) 846-8671, or you can see Mr. Whitten's next appearance at 10:30 AM this morning, in Courtroom 202C at the Washington County Courthouse, just to sign his indictment from yesterday. You can also find him on the web at MySpace and LiveJournal as the user bennetfox and in Washington County on th web at http://pswebpub.co.washington.or.us/jms/incustody/. Or, if you happen to physically be there, Pod 7 of the Washington County Jail in Hillsboro.

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2007/07/362114.shtml

[Guest]

That's some bullshit.

It makes me mad to hear about things like that, and for precisely the same reasons as the rest of you, I'm sure. The right to life and the preservation of it is in my opinion inalienable. Governments cannot and should not regulate it. It is a natural human condition to defend against lethal threats, and one should not be charged or jailed or even tried simply because they are successful in so doing.

As for knowing when to stop, that's a fair and accurate statement. But in this case, with the information provided, it would not seem Mr. Singh went too far. It seems to me that he had every reason to suspect that the man and not the knife was the most dangerous threat, and since he'd already been wounded (and had no training), his decision to use the knife against his assailant was not excessive.

At least not to a reasonable person, that is.

Michael, have you thought about getting a petition going for Mr. Singh? I'd sign (for what an American signature would be worth).

One of the UK Newspapers is setting up a petition, as soon as I have details then I will forward the web link. I will certainly be pushing everyone I know and everyone they know to sign it.

[Tant01]

slaughter your freedom...

It's a sad story. Some thug impales himself on his own knife and the intended victim gets prosecuted for it... sweet. This should send a powerful message to the subjects of that government.

The answer is clear, eh? Destroy all weapons, disarm everyone and then all will be happy and blissful...

[Hardball]

This is why Martial arts was invented some 800 years ago. So say, 2000 years ago but anyway you get the point.

[KirkhamsEbooks.]

The #1 fatal mistake people in this deadly situation make is to talk to the nice policeman before talking to a lawyer! Not just for advice but to minimize the debilitating effects of high stress due to violence (called either critical incident stress, CIS or sympathetic nervous system stress, SNS).

You know I really have to agree. People are trained to cooperate with the police and in a perfect world if you're innocent you wouldn't need an attorny, but it's not a perfect world and I believe shutting up, letting the police find the films of the attack which could exist from various securty cameras (I recently heard the average person is filmed over 100 times during the course of the day much to the regret of a few bad cops and plenty of bad guys) and make their own conclusions is a lot better than volunteering to be hung

Rick

[KirkhamsEbooks.]

It's a sad story. Some thug impales himself on his own knife and the intended victim gets prosecuted for it... sweet. This should send a powerful message to the subjects of that government.

The answer is clear, eh? Destroy all weapons, disarm everyone and then all will be happy and blissful...

A while back here in Honolulu a father and a son held a child molester down for the police holding a knife to him after he had thrust himself on a toddlers face (grrrrrrrrr)

The detective interviewed said to the reporter after asking about the bruses on the creep when he was arrested

"Oh ya, he must have fallen down"

Sometimes it works the right way

Rick