2'fer-Biomechanical cutting & small arms

[Garland]

I'm looking for a comprehensive guide to biomechanical cutting...for combative application...that means I don't want any references to grey's anatomy.

Anyone have any leads on this? I mean, the basic arteries and water works are common sense- although Fairbarn's timetables seem a little off, and the organs should also be common knowledge...

I'm thinking more tendons, ligaments, muscle groups...things like nerve branches (i.e. sciatic), and all these other really bad things to nic. And I'm well aware a cut anywhere is bad news...I'm just really interested in the anatomy/physiology aspect to the use of edged weapons.
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The second question; I'm looking for a good beginner's guide to the tactical use of firearms; I've heard anything by Gabriel Suarez or Massad Ayoob are pretty much top of the tier...and I'm mostly inquisitive about what would be a good title for a greenhorn like myself.

[Tant01]

"...the flat-out truth is that in 99.9% of the times that a knife is used on another human being it is a criminal act."

Marc MacYoung

[Garland]

"...the flat-out truth is that in 99.9% of the times that a knife is used on another human being it is a criminal act."

Marc MacYoung

Um...I beg to differ. I'd say that 90% of the time, a knife being used on another human being is with the intent to heal. But I think Marc MacYoung is generally full of shit anyway, after having read and skimmed through a few of his books.

[Tant01]

Um...I beg to differ. I'd say that 90% of the time, a knife being used on another human being is with the intent to heal. .....

"I'm looking for a comprehensive guide to biomechanical cutting...for combative application"

A scalpel in the hands of a surgon doesn't really scream "combative" to me...

Sorry G man.

In my humble opinion books and ART are for entertainment. The best defensive knife skill you can have is deployment. Practice that.

[Tant01]

Dude... There are few places outside a rural butcher shop to get actual "hands on" cutting practice. You could go to medical school and dissect a few cadavers...

It's almost surprising how much cutting friction clothing will produce. I'm not suggesting you cruely slaughter or kill anything with a knife but it can be done. You may be surprised by the efficiency of dispatching with a nice sharp blade.

I mean no disrespect at all to Bram Frank or CSSD\SC but realistically speaking it is more than a bit difficult to completely sever (de animate) any thing without some practical application to develop the skill. Then to apply it in a dynamic and unpredictable situation we losely call "self defense"??? Eh.... I'm not saying it CAN'T be done but... you know? THEORY ABOUNDS!

Now, if your intent is educational I suggest dissecting pigs or bears (say comparative anatomy)

As for a good BOOK on the subject? Let me know what you find...

LOL

[Guest]

I'm looking for a comprehensive guide to biomechanical cutting...for combative application...that means I don't want any references to grey's anatomy.

Anyone have any leads on this? I mean, the basic arteries and water works are common sense- although Fairbarn's timetables seem a little off, and the organs should also be common knowledge...

I'm thinking more tendons, ligaments, muscle groups...things like nerve branches (i.e. sciatic), and all these other really bad things to nic. And I'm well aware a cut anywhere is bad news...I'm just really interested in the anatomy/physiology aspect to the use of edged weapons.
.

I guess my immediate question is, why do you feel the need to step into this kind of detail, in what is a pretty niche and extreme area of the arts? As far as I'm aware you aren't a soldier, so as a civillian I find it highly unlikely that this kind of knowledge will ever serve any practical use in your life.

If this is a special area of interest to you, then I guess each to their own. Its a pretty morbid fascination though my friend, there's got to be better things in life to do than this. Beer for example, or perhaps porn.

Hey ho, its your nickel.

[Garland]

Now, if your intent is educational I suggest dissecting pigs

As for a good BOOK on the subject? Let me know what you find...

LOL

1) yes, as a student I have dissected animals, including pigs, which I hear are the best analogs for human flesh. I very well may get a stab (pardon the pun) at a human cadaver as a psychiatric nursing student, but this remains to be seen.

2) why wouldn't there be a book on it? there are far more obscure titles out there that serve even less of a purpose to a lay person... such as books that focus on the syncronisity of religious symbols in different asian martial arts, tracing them from India to Indonesia...and examining how cultural worldviews, along with environmental factors, may influence the physical movements of an art...and how it's practiced.

And Michael...
I like to examine all aspects of something if I have a passion for it...
that means a holisitc approach that encorporates physiology, psychology, culture, and spiritual/symbolic/philisophic aspects.

I recently bought an ethnographic book on the last filipino headhunters and dave grossman's book "on killing" about the psychological and social repercussions of learning how to kill. For me the connections between all of these things are clear and not at all tenuous.

Biomechanical cutting theory may seem somewhat impractical in real time against an assailant with intent...so what? In every art I have ever seen, there is a component of accuracy similar to biomechanical cutting- hitting the sciatic nerve with a kick in muay thai, pulling off a gunting (jesus, how hard is that!) in the FMA, or even landing a solid punch with the proper timing to catch somebody in boxing...or the understanding of anatomy in any grappling art...tendons are large targets, and major arteries are probably HARD to miss if you're trying. I believe that there may be something there, and it would be foolish to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. As for the "extreme" aspect...this seems ridiculous to me. Why learn any martial art if the average person will never get into a serious altercation in their life? Most people can take the bumps of a typical fight and be fine...

But, alas we train. If there is no reason to train an art geared toward combative application...there is no reason to train most of the arts we do. I admit it's a morbid hobby, but it's one that is common to everyone on this forum. The "why" is subjective. Without trying to overanalyze myself and read too much into it, I'll just chalk my curiosity up as being comorbid to my fascination with fighting arts/ fighting.

[Garland]

As far as the 90% of knife use on people that's intended to heal, that's easy. Go to med school. However, despite the fact that you used that as your defense for the MacYoung quote, I get the impression you're really looking for effective ways to cut people up and make their parts quit working.

That was kind of a reach...
I think it was less about making me winning some sort of argument, and more about my contempt for somebody using a MacYoung quote against me. Icky.

Thanks for the advice, and I may choose to hit you up about the ethics questions also, as I always feel that I take something away and learn something important when you post...

My interest into the whole bram frank thing got sparked when I saw the gunting knife...and with biomechanical cutting I see an opportunity to use a knife with less lethality (although legally still using lethal force). The benefit of which would be to use what you have on hand with less guilt after the fact. I guess I assumed that the ideas behind the design of the knife and the theory would have to fit into a similar paradigm.

[Garland]

Defanging the snake, guntings, saluts, and so forth all seem like biomechanical cutting to me. I keep getting the Paul Vunak video where he talks about what happens with a cut to the arm in my mind as we're going over this. Am I really far off the mark?

[Tant01]

That was kind of a reach...
I think it was less about making me winning some sort of argument, and more about my contempt for somebody using a MacYoung quote against me. Icky.

......

Wasn't "against" you G man.... In many cases knife "defense" makes you a "knifer"...
On the other hand there are less lethal control devices available with a wide range of applications...

[Guest]

And Michael...
I like to examine all aspects of something if I have a passion for it...
that means a holisitc approach that encorporates physiology, psychology, culture, and spiritual/symbolic/philisophic aspects.

I recently bought an ethnographic book on the last filipino headhunters and dave grossman's book "on killing" about the psychological and social repercussions of learning how to kill. For me the connections between all of these things are clear and not at all tenuous.

Biomechanical cutting theory may seem somewhat impractical in real time against an assailant with intent...so what? In every art I have ever seen, there is a component of accuracy similar to biomechanical cutting- hitting the sciatic nerve with a kick in muay thai, pulling off a gunting (jesus, how hard is that!) in the FMA, or even landing a solid punch with the proper timing to catch somebody in boxing...or the understanding of anatomy in any grappling art...tendons are large targets, and major arteries are probably HARD to miss if you're trying. I believe that there may be something there, and it would be foolish to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. As for the "extreme" aspect...this seems ridiculous to me. Why learn any martial art if the average person will never get into a serious altercation in their life? Most people can take the bumps of a typical fight and be fine...

But, alas we train. If there is no reason to train an art geared toward combative application...there is no reason to train most of the arts we do. I admit it's a morbid hobby, but it's one that is common to everyone on this forum. The "why" is subjective. Without trying to overanalyze myself and read too much into it, I'll just chalk my curiosity up as being comorbid to my fascination with fighting arts/ fighting.

I hear you, some fair points.

Just to pick up on Mike’s statement, my response wasn’t moral or ethical, it was just personal.

I train in empty hand combat arts to have a sound base in self-protection, and I like to understand all aspects of that. I train in combat athletics to stay in shape and compete. I also train in what I would call the “art” side of things that have no functional use in my life, but they are just fun and I enjoy them. So yeah, holistic approach to martial arts is fully understood, you sound like a very thorough guy.

My post was based in the specific wording of your opening line “I'm looking for a comprehensive guide to biomechanical cutting...for combative application” hence my curiosity was spiked as to why this was a factor in your life. If this is a theoretical study then that’s answered my question, I didn’t pick that up from the post.

I don’t think you can genuinely dismiss the notion that this falls more towards the extreme side of things. Hitting focus mitts, doing some rolling on the mat, working some double stick, doing some trapping………learning about the biomechanical cutting of the human anatomy…..they don’t quite sit together in the same basket. For me, anyway, but that’s by the by.

I’ll tell you why I come at this from the point of view that I do. I had to learn this stuff, because of some of the people I teach, and it’s a pretty grim endeavour. Given the choice this isn’t an area of study I would have entered into, its not something I particularly enjoy teaching, its not really a positive place to take your mind and your curiosity if you have the choice. Therefore I just found it odd that someone would choose to enter this field recreationally.

But hey, we’re all different, so I hope you get what you need out of it.

[bodhisattva]

When you use terms like "biomechanical cutting," I worry that you're making a very simple thing overly complex, though. The simple fact is, your own common sense is largely sufficent when it comes to viable targets. Look at your body. What connectors make things move? Would your arm work if you got stabbed clear through the shoulder joint? Can you feel the "hole" that leads to the rotator? What about the elbow? Can you feel the "well" that goes down into the softer connective tissue? Wrist?

Pretty much the point I was making when I told you that I don't need a Sayoc Kali master to tell me where to put a knife.

At the time, you thought that was ludicrous.

However, my own point at the time was that simple common sense and some basic anatomy and physiology knowledge would probably suffice when couple with solid boxing and grappling skills.

This post you make, is a pretty good argument for my side of that debate. Thanks for my arguing my points for me. It saves me time

[Tant01]

I've got to be honest, the term "biomechanical cutting" is still a bit of a mystery to me. I'm not trying to sound more retarded than usual, but it seems like one of those terms somebody cooked up in order to sell something. What makes it any different than other types of cutting? Honest question. I really don't know.



............?

I would agree. Total deanimation of an apendage usually requires isolating the limb, controlled destruction as opposed to a typical slash or stab from contact range.

Like applying an arm bar and THEN cutting it through the connective tissue.

Unless you're using a machette...

[Garland]

My theory (Anyone want to give Garland an I a grant to research this? Anyone?) is that it's that phenomenon that explains why we are able to do the really precise stuff at higher levels but not at lower levels.

Am I making this more complicated?

Man, that would be a fun study to run. Get an fMRI to look at localized brain activity, and then check reaction time using one of those exceptionally accurate cameras.

I don't think what you're saying is making the issue more complicated, I agree with you on all points, but I think the crux of the conversation, and where everyone, including myself, is getting confused is the whole construct of "biomechanical cutting". Maybe we should look at what Bram Frank is marketing, and then extend that definition using a nomenological net to come to a precise and universal definition?

[Garland]

[QUOTE=Michael Wright;292213] If this is a theoretical study then that’s answered my question, I didn’t pick that up from the post.

I’ll tell you why I come at this from the point of view that I do. I had to learn this stuff, because of some of the people I teach, and it’s a pretty grim endeavour. Given the choice this isn’t an area of study I would have entered into, its not something I particularly enjoy teaching, its not really a positive place to take your mind and your curiosity if you have the choice. Therefore I just found it odd that someone would choose to enter this field recreationally. [QUOTE]

My interest in the topic is wholly theoretical...as I highly doubt I will ever use a knife on somebody...but I see knowledge of anatomy in this aspect, and with this particular perspective of anatomy, being an important part to learning and augmenting, if not fully understanding defense and use of an edged weapon. I remember a dog brothers video back in the day, one of the first series they put out, where they had a doctor explain what areas of the head would be best to strike in a life or death situation, or conversely viewed, which areas of the head to be especially aware of defending...or assessing the extent of an injury after the fact.

I guess my point is...all knowledge is useful...and I believe that the information that requires the highest level of moral responsibility is important to examine most thouroughly. It is at the center of what we learn. The filipino fighting arts, like all true martial arts, are designed to inflict damage upon other human beings. If you hit somebody, or apply a choke, or cut somebody...there are repercussions. Why ashew and try and hide or abscure this fact? It seems dishonest. An angle one in the inosanto numbering system (and many other systems, including pekiti tirsia) does what when the person using that angle has a knife in their hand? How is it different from saying "making a right to left diagnal incision/laceration/stab/trust to the upper part of the face or neck?" People who understand anatomy understand the vital templates. In Sayoc, the three of nine clearly illustrates what arteries they intend to sever and is based on the reciever's physiological responses.

People who learn weapons arts are already learning to inflict the wounds, it seems more irresponsible as an individual to not understand what the wounds are.