Discussion on what makes a good seld defense cirriculum

[jubaji]

Its also apparent that you haven't seen the differences between going to the ground and being taken there. .

How and why is that "apparent?"

[kingoftheforest]

I think it was Jim Grover who said that "(sport fighting) you do with somebody, combatives you do to somebody." That being said, I think that somebody with a good base in something like muay thai and jiujitsu using combatives principles is probably going to be a much more formidable opponent than just some shlub using the same principles in a fight. Not only do they have the RBSD type stuff, but they have a more than functional knowledge of other things to draw from and better foundation to launch things out of.

More is better.

I'm not trying to start an arguement...I'm honestly just trying to see if you think that knowing how to throw a punch or a kick effectively or get into superior positions via grappling to employ meaner tactics to their full potential or deploy a weapon is a wash??? Much less the conditioning...I mean...you already put up the article on why "sparring" is good for RBSD, right? (haven't read it yet, sorry...I will.)

Personally I agree Garland. The more tools you have the knowledge of those tools, the better your chances. Learning "how to fight" has got to be part of learning how to defend yourself.

You have to know when and where to employ certain concepts and ideas. Knowing your body and how to move it is an essential tool.

But at the same time you can't teach your body certain aspects, like taking a guard or expecting your opponent to submit. There are parts of both the traditional and RBSD concepts of martial arts that compliment each other.
There are also parts that have to be taken out or added depending on weather you're doing tournament fighting or RBSD martial arts.

Practicing the "politeness" of the TMA's can possibly cause a habitual weakness in a SD situation. Is that a guarantee, not necessarily, but it's something I personally choose not to train.

[Uke]

"After such encounters, I would invariably be disappointed with what I was forced to resort to in order to prevail - not always, but still I doggedly stuck with sparring as being the answer to fighting, and made sure I did more of it to better 'prepare' myself for the next incident - even though it was not what I really needed, just what I thought I did - and I was wrong.

For those that did want to 'duel', and for the others that hung back looking for that perfect opportunity to land a shot, it all panned out as per training, but these instances were firmly in the minority - maybe for not for everyone out there, but it seemed that most of the people I came up against - once it went combative - just wanted to batter me and tried their very best to do so from the off. Occasionally there would be the obvious martial artist, and to be brutally honest these were the easiest to deal with, and still are.

Sparring makes you tough, better conditioned, improves timing and the ability to hit moving targets - this is undeniable, but the entire tactical model is wrong, unless the other person is like-minded and wants to trade shots in the same format. Sometimes they do, but mostly they don't in my experience - they want you out of the picture as soon as possible and generally try to achieve this by completely 'get stuck in' asymmetrical means, and as such having a symmetrical plan falls down at the base level." - Mick Coup

[Sagacious Lu]

The reason I bring up "street smarts" is because that's what you're talking about when you say "awareness" and "mind set". I'm extremely skeptical that you can teach someone how to carry themselves or to use the appropriate amount of force for a given situation. I don't need someone to teach me how to handle myself in my own neighborhood and the fact that I enjoy sports doesn't mean I'm not aware of what I can expect if get in trouble with the white-t crew up the street. When I hear the RBSD diatribes on "mind set" and "awareness" I'm hearing people state the obvious and acting like it's a revelation. It seems to be the big thing that distinguishes RBSD from competitive styles and IMHO it takes valuable training time away from more important things. I probably take it a little too personally but the idea that my training is lacking because it doesn't include these things bothers me. I don't need to be taught how to walk to the grocery store and back; I do it all the time. This is something that I've always had questions about when it comes to the Self Defense ideology that I've seen.

[jubaji]

At the risk of repeating myself again: Excellent post.

[Sagacious Lu]

Thanks, it's good to be back on the board.

[Tom Yum]

I don't need to be taught how to walk to the grocery store and back.

Sure you do...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KOXa8mkPpeY

It doesn't get any more urban than this.

[Sagacious Lu]

Sure you do...

YouTube - Saturday Night Fever : "Stayin' Alive" (Bee Gees)

It doesn't get any more urban than this.

LOLOL... Yeah, you've got a point, I should start wearing butterfly collars

[Uke]

The reason I bring up "street smarts" is because that's what you're talking about when you say "awareness" and "mind set". I'm extremely skeptical that you can teach someone how to carry themselves or to use the appropriate amount of force for a given situation. I don't need someone to teach me how to handle myself in my own neighborhood and the fact that I enjoy sports doesn't mean I'm not aware of what I can expect if get in trouble with the white-t crew up the street. When I hear the RBSD diatribes on "mind set" and "awareness" I'm hearing people state the obvious and acting like it's a revelation. It seems to be the big thing that distinguishes RBSD from competitive styles and IMHO it takes valuable training time away from more important things. I probably take it a little too personally but the idea that my training is lacking because it doesn't include these things bothers me. I don't need to be taught how to walk to the grocery store and back; I do it all the time. This is something that I've always had questions about when it comes to the Self Defense ideology that I've seen.

Contrary to what many people think, the extent of most people's street smarts ends with avoidance. Avoidance is the number one tactic practiced by decent residents in bad neighborhoods.

I believe I wrote that on page one. In that post, I go on to say that "street smarts" are just the product of experience. It's not some secret handbook that only RBSD practitioners know. I don't think anyone implied that either.

This is exactly why I stated over and over again that aspects like avoidance and diffusion only go but so far. Awareness IMO boils down to catching on to details that will give you a heads up when something is about to down.

Personally, I don't care what anyone uses to defend themselves. If you think that sparring and emulating ring fighting is sufficient, I say do it till ya love it! I'm not going to tell you what you can't do. Anything is possible. For all I care you can sumo wrestle as a form of self defense.

However, I know that no reputable RBSD is teaching those methods as a way of self defense. I know that men who have been studying and teaching combative methods for decades aren't even thinking about likening RBSD to boxing with feet or fists. Many of these men started out with high rank in other styles, but they moved away from traditional and sportive methods because they came to a point where they realized that pugilism wasn't what they needed to accomplish what they desired. I already pointed that out above. If muay thai, karate, judo, wrestling or boxing was sufficient then they would have just used those methods. They weren't, so they didn't.

Some schools offer some competitive sports in addition to self defense, but none of the reputable schools try to lump them in together or lead their students into believing that one thing is the other.

All the proof one needs can be found at a RBSD school. Most of the people there will be from other systems and they will also have spent time trying to fit their square pegs into the triangle holes. Why would they invest 10 to 20 years practicing something only to switch?

Its not to say that something is better, but just as much as some of you want us to consider that boxing and wrestling are acceptable forms of self defense I ask you to consider why very accomplished sport combat competitors switch over. Its not often that you see happen the other way around.

It should be really be mentioned that all the sportive methods came to be only once the law became "civilized".

Judo - came about once the samurai were forbidden to carry swords
Boxing/wrestling - never wartime or field combatives
modern wushu - performance art
modern karate - watered down sparring art
muay thai - basically kickboxing. Krabi Krabong was the wartime art, not siamese boxing
aikido - watered down version of a brutal jujitsu art

Even way back then people weren't mistaking recreation for combatives. There was always a distinction. In fact, the father of modern combatives got his ass kicked trying to box and wrestle his way out of a confrontation. That's how the development of combatives got started.

Again, I say do what you like, but just because you think what you do is RBSD or even RBSD-esque doesn't make it so. But you can call it whatever you like though.

[jubaji]

I believe I wrote that on page one. In that post, I go on to say that "street smarts" are just the product of experience. It's not some secret handbook that only RBSD practitioners know. I don't think anyone implied that either.

Then why do we spend so much time here arguing over whose experience is legitimate or not?

[jubaji]

All the proof one needs can be found at a RBSD school. Most of the people there will be from other systems and they will also have spent time trying to fit their square pegs into the triangle holes. Why would they invest 10 to 20 years practicing something only to switch?

This is simply illogical. If someone from your school quits and decides to take up boxing, does that then 'prove' the opposite? Do we compare who switches from what to what and when and why? Do we have reliable stats for that?

[jubaji]

Judo - came about once the samurai were forbidden to carry swords
Boxing/wrestling - never wartime or field combatives
modern wushu - performance art
modern karate - watered down sparring art
muay thai - basically kickboxing. Krabi Krabong was the wartime art, not siamese boxing
aikido - watered down version of a brutal jujitsu art

I think we could go through quite a few threads examining some of those assumptions.

[Uke]

I think we could go through quite a few threads examining some of those assumptions.

The above quote isn't "my" opinion. I could spend one post discussing the fact that they aren't assumptions. And I just did.

[jubaji]

See post #44

[Uke]

Then why do we spend so much time here arguing over whose experience is legitimate or not?

I don't argue over other people's experience, jubaji. I argue when people who admittedly have never trained outside of ring methods try to pass of sports dogma and methods as RBSD. And most people don't have to actually come out and admit that they've never trained in RBSD. All one has to do is sit back and let them write about it and the words tell on themselves.

I am completely not interested in what any of you can do. I'm not sure that I've ever asked anyone who wasn't putting on a grand display to get attention. But that doesn't mean that when red flags are raised I won't notice or ask questions.

Many assumptions have been written here. Like the idea that because professional ring fighters are in top shape that all or even most people who train in muay thai and boxing will be in great shape. The same assumption goes for BJJ and wrestling as well. That isn't even really an assumption. Its just plain wrong. Anyone at a professional level in any physically demanding sport will be in better condition to meet the demands of that sport. But 90% of the world's people ain't pro. So we can leave that myth at the door. Judging by some comments written here you think that only ring competitors train hard. That couldn't be further from the truth.

The next assumption is that just because you are carrying a knife, you think that you can deploy and use that knife against someone who knows how. Sure you'll have a fighting chance, but the fact is that when the sh!t hits the fan most won't go for their knife right away. They'll get caught up fighting hard, which just translates to throwing lots of punches and kicks. The sparring thread does a wonderful job of describing what the sport fighter considers "combat" and how they go about accomplishing a win. And even if you did manage to deploy your blade, what are you going to do? If you've taken some sort of FMA to "round out" then you're going to take a stance and start flourishing your knife or stick because that's what many of the schools teach. They are dueling and traditional schools, not combatives. Martial arts is what you do with somebody. RBSD and combatives is something you do to somebody.

There have been examples where boxers fight martial artists. Muhammad Ali did. He went on to say that a karate man would beat a boxer because of his tools and the way he trained. And Ali is arguably the greatest boxer who ever lived in some circles. The same idea applies when discussing RBSD. The tools are and training are different than those of sport competition to be used towards different ends.

RBSD, which is often times a preemptive assault, is and always has been predicated on kill or being killed. Encounters like that don't last even a minute most times.

If this applied to sports, how I ask, can matches go on for 12 rounds? The Gracies once bragged that a match went on for I believe 3 hours and 40 minutes! And the Gracies are constantly likening what they do to real violence and street combat. That bull. A knife in a fight isn't meant for anything else but cutting. And being that most reputable RBSDs are predicated on edged weapons it's a no-brainer what they are intended to be used for. This is what the training is geared towards.

By reading some of the arguments here over the past few years, it becomes clear that some of you don't believe that your training has to be focused towards an end. Some of you actually believe that because you say you "train hard" that other skills that you don't focus on will come easily and be there during a real altercation. Wrong again. I've said it a thousand times and will continue to say it: You will fight like you've trained. Still, the biggest assumption that has ever been written here on the topic of street violence is that sport training will be enough ... and if it isn't then the only alternatives that ANYONE would have is to run. That is more nonsense.

There is a thing called situational effectiveness. For sports, the rules create a situation where the method can be effective. Period. Weight classes alone have dramatically revamped MMA, boxing and kickboxing alone ... not to mention pads, rounds, and rules that prohibit hitting down opponents in certain ways with certain strikes.

What these events allow many of you to do is imagine and give consent to your reasoning to believe that the ring and the street are only places or locations, and nothing more, so the effectiveness would be the same on the asphalt or on a mat. What you don't seem to realize is that going for a shoot against a man with a knife is suicidal. Taking an armed man down and having him in your guard is suicidal. Muay thai clinching with an armed man and attempting to knee him repeatedly is suicidal.

Basically the message is that you wouldn't attempt half the things in a street altercation that you would in the ring. No jumping muay thai knees. No rolling leg locks. No guard work. No boxing matches. No shoot or takedown attempts. Nothing that would have you throwing caution to the wind because you knew the worst that could happen is you'd get knocked out and the ref would save you before any real damage could be done.

So basically you have just limited your arsenal that you regularly use, and now you are going to do what? Are you automatically going to know which techniques are "Okay" to use and which ones are risky and dangerous despite training only for the ring? Are you all of a sudden going to switch "modes" into doing something that you basically don't do the majority of the time you've spent training? That's just more nonsense. Hell, what allows most of MMA matches to go on for as long as they do is the guard. So once that's eliminated as an option half of what you're accustomed to working with is wiped out.

So then what you'd be saying is that now that you're in a situation where you can be killed you'll limit yourself and your trained abilities in order to do better? What kind of backwards thinking is that? And for those of you who are going to say that you wouldn't limit yourself, are you saying that you'd continue to use the flying knees, spinning back kicks, muay thai clinch and launch knees, shoot in an attempt takedowns, go to the guard, use triangle chokes, rolling leg locks and trade shots? I can't wait to hear someone say that those aren't the exact things that happen in MMA and kickboxing. That would be more than enough satisfaction for me to see such hypocrisy on display.

I've already stated that many if not most RBSD practitioners come from a traditional background like karate, judo, etc. Did you know that many of the practitioners who tried to keep competing once they began learning RBSD often got disqualified because they couldn't turn off the self defense training? They would do things that were against the rules of whatever tournament they were in and wind up getting DQ'd over and over again. Can you guess why? Its because they couldn't turn off the way they had begun to train their minds and bodies to respond either. It works both ways, not just for the sporty guys.

In the end, it can best be said that while the ring and the street are locations, what happens in both places is what makes up the reality. Things that happen in the street won't ever happen in the ring. In fact, anything can happen in the street which makes it reality. While only orchestrated situations happen in the ring which makes it art or sport. Training for those unforeseen realities in a practical manner is the purpose of RBSD. While training under the strict rules of a manufactured event and closely adhering to those rules to prevent being disqualified is what makes sport combat or just sports in general a safe and predictable game.