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  • Pioneers of Sportive "reality" sound off

    In Search of Jiu-Jitsu

    "The most efficient martial art ever created has become a mere sport and detached itself from its roots"
    by JP (Choke Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu / Home)

    If you are reading this article, it is likely that you are a practitioner or at least an enthusiast of Jiu-Jitsu. Nice. However, I am sorry to say that – except for rare cases – what you believe Jiu-Jitsu to be has little to do with the martial art developed by the ancient Japanese and perfected (perhaps even re-created) by brothers Carlos and Helio Gracie, their family and disciples.

    But how can that be? After all, you probably train with a black-belt who has fought in a number of tournaments, who has taught you how to do arm-locks, sweeps and so on. If he didn’t know Jiu-Jitsu, he wouldn’t be a black-belt, wouldn’t have ever won a competition and wouldn’t be teaching in an academy, right? Well, sort of.

    Nowadays, when one speaks about BJJ, what immediately come to mind are competitions, like the World and Pan-American championships. That is because our art has been reduced to merely a competition sport. When a new student signs up in a gym to learn how to defend himself, he is only going to learn competitive Jiu-Jitsu (remember: there are rare exceptions) – even if he is never going to compete at all. I have nothing against sports, but whatever happened to the other elements that make Jiu-Jitsu the most efficient martial art of all times?

    Why self-defense is fundamental

    Many decades ago, the lessons at the first “Academia Gracie” in Rio de Janeiro were taught individually and following a structured program of self-defense. The idea was to give the students a real and practical knowledge of how to use the Jiu-Jitsu technique to defend against a bigger and stronger aggressor. In an interview given in 1998, Grand Master Helio Gracie explained this concept: “The Jiu-Jitsu I have created is not a competition sport. I was never a competitor. I have always been weak, weighing around 135lb. I’ve never had the physical characteristics to create a method for competing. Every competitor is an athlete. I was never an athlete. But I created the Federation so that Jiu-Jitsu had an official projection, to put emphasis on my art. The thing is that my Jiu-Jitsu is a self-defense art. It’s for actual fighting. It’s meant to protect the citizens, the old men, a child, a woman, a young lady from being beat up by some thug just because they have no athletic abilities to fight.”

    If you are interested in competing, Jiu-Jitsu’s competitive side is undoubtedly a great option. But this doesn’t mean self-defense should be left aside because it’s not very useful in competition. Here is a good example: how many ways of passing the half-guard do you know? And how many ways of escaping from an aggressor that is giving you a “bouncer’s headlock”? I wouldn’t be surprised if the answers are 10 and 0, respectively.

    I learned this lesson during a curious episode that changed my way of understanding Jiu-Jitsu. I accompanied Gracie Magazine’s editor, Luca Atalla, in a visit to Grand Master Helio Gracie’s house in Itaipava, Rio de Janeiro, while he did one of the several interviews that wound up becoming the article on the master’s life. Hours into the interview, Helio put his hands on my neck and asked if I knew how to escape such common attack. I then tried to improvise something that didn’t work, and got reprehended right there. Quite in his style, he asked me to grab his neck in the same fashion. “Squeeze it as strong as you can,” he sternly requested. I felt awkward, but did as he said and witnessed one of the clearest examples of the philosophy behind Gracie Jiu-Jitsu: “minimum effort for maximum efficiency.” With an extremely simple move, master Helio escaped from my hands and opened a wide smile. Embarassing. I felt like trash.

    “Minimum effort for maximum efficiency,” have you ever heard of it? Well, I had heard of it, but it took me a long time to really comprehend the concept. Choose each and every move in an intelligent way; calculate the precise amount of force needed to execute it; make your opponent constantly waste more energy than you. Summarizing, find the easiest way to reach your goal. Therefore, let’s go back to the “bouncer’s headlock”: what use is it to be the best half-guard passer in the world if you are left defenseless when this funny named move is used against you?

    Wait a second. Obviously, even without knowing the right way to escape, you might be able to break away from the headlock and use your competition Jiu-Jitsu to kick your aggressor’s ass. I don’t doubt it, but I’d like to point out that, just like you strive to find the most efficient technique to pass a half-guard in the academy or in a tournament, you should also try to have in your arsenal the most efficient way to get rid of a rough headlock, for example. Think about it: if your only concern is about techniques related to competition and not self-defense, then practicing Jiu-Jitsu, karate, ping-pong or volleyball end up being all the same thing: just a game.

    MMA is another thing

    Jiu-Jitsu and martial arts in general have changed a lot over the past ten years or so. In 1993 Royce Gracie opened the eyes of the world to the incredible efficiency of his family’s art in vale-tudo (“anything goes”) combats. It was clear then that in a hand-to-hand fight with almost no rules against a bigger, stronger opponent, the best weapon is definitely Jiu-Jitsu. And I’m not talking about sport techniques only, but also the “street Jiu-Jitsu” the Gracie family and its followers have developed. Myths and legends have gone down the drain in the USA, Japan and the rest of the world. But for Brazilians it wasn’t a new idea, after all Jiu-Jitsu has always reigned supreme in their country.

    The vale-tudo – or No Holds Barred, as it was earlier called in the U.S. – fever swept the planet, and events started to pop up everywhere. It didn’t take long for “anything goes” to become “mixed martial arts,” taking an universal shape and following pretty much the same set of rules in every country. No matter what your favorite show is, whether it’s Pride (Japan), UFC (USA) or Cage Rage (UK), they all feature rounds, judges and gloves. It’s undeniable that these factors helped create a more marketable product for TV and the masses. But the essence of vale-tudo was lost.

    Think about it: when there is a time limit for the match, you train to give your best during those 15 or 20 minutes of fighting. If there is no submission or KO, three “experts” will determine the winner. And how about the gloves, those hand pillows? Just imagine what would happen to Fedor Emelianenko’s hands after he launches his missiles onto his opponent’s skull and you will see my point here.

    This vale-tudo mutation called MMA resembles the original idea, although it is in fact something very different. It has become a sport. And as such, its competitors strive to make the best use of the rules in order to win. Physical preparation is intense and fundamental, because, in order to enter a ring nowadays, one must have as much strength, explosion and endurance as possible during all rounds. When a fighter starts thinking he won’t be able to finish the match before time elapses, he begins to look for the best positioning to assure a decision victory. This usually translates into take down + stalling from the top, throwing punches to score points. This issue has become so serious that certain MMA professionals are specialists in winning that way. Professional competitors. Evidently, submissions and knock outs aren’t easy tasks, but there is nothing more subversive to the martial arts’ philosophy than a fight where the opponents want to win by points or judges decision.

    Just like the first UFCs redefined the way to fight (barely) with no rules, the current success of MMA events has been strongly affecting the understanding of Jiu-Jitsu and the way it must be used during a fight. Original vale-tudo – no gloves, no time limit, no rounds, no judges, the only illegal moves being bites and eye gouging – is the closest you can get to a real hand-to-hand fight. Jiu-Jitsu’s efficiency under these conditions is more than proven. And that’s why nowadays there is no MMA competitor who doesn’t train Jiu-Jitsu or one of its sub-products, such as submission wrestling or grappling. In this professional arena all athletes strive to become complete. They also practice other arts like boxing, wrestling and muay thai. The more tools one has in the ring, the better.

    But what if you have no intentions of ever stepping into a ring or octagon? Cross-training is only important to a MMA professional or to someone who decides to dedicate his life to the practice of several martial arts. For the common citizen who is not an athlete (the vast majority), only Jiu-Jitsu provides solid chances of successfully defending against a bigger, stronger aggressor on the streets. What takes place in the Pride ring, for example, is not applicable to me, my girlfriend, my grandfather or my 13-year-old brother. As a wise man once put it: “One thing is one thing, another thing is another thing.” Well, MMA is definitely another thing.

    In Search of Jiu-Jitsu

  • #2
    Seems like the pioneers of the beloved MMA combat format have a lot of things to say similar to my views. Says a lot for the people here who claimed that my thoughts on MMA were theories and conjecture. It simply boils down to people wanted a thing to be something that it clearly isn't and has never been.

    I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more "special" members here go on to say that even though the Gracies are responsible for the current format and the success of events like it, they don't know better than some of clowns here after fighting in the MMA format for over 60 years.

    I wonder if the Gracies, who popularized the fornat, will be seen as "speculating".

    Comment


    • #3
      Jiu-Jitsu is fought with the Gi. Period


      One of the myths that mixed martial arts helped create is that everyone has got to train with no gi on. It happens to be that Jiu-Jitsu is fought with the Gi, period. Training without it is interesting and fun, opening one’s eyes to different types of grips, variations of many moves and a much faster game. But it is far from fundamental to the ordinary student with no perspective of fighting in the ADCC World Championship. The Gi is made of a fabric strong enough to resist the rough routine of the mats. It simulates the clothes we wear in our everyday life. Even in a hot country like Brazil. And if one day you find yourself in a dark alley facing a sweaty man wearing nothing but speedos, I suggest you simply run as fast as you can and do not engage him.

      Therefore, since athletes these days train exclusively the elements connected to MMA fighting and its rules, the Jiu-Jitsu they take to the ring is a deformation of true Jiu-Jitsu. In order to better analyze it, let’s not take in consideration a fighter’s natural abilities and personal skills. Then it becomes clear that the reason of their success when it comes to ground fighting is due to two brilliant factors of Jiu-Jitsu: the efficiency of the techniques and the logical transitioning. The first factor is easy to understand. Chokes and foot locks, for example, when correctly applied, are very efficient. The second factor concerns the way of training Jiu-Jitsu and the sense of direction it offers the practitioner. First you shorten the distance to avoid kicks and punches. From the clinch you move on to the takedown. Once you are on the floor, you start looking for increasingly better positions, until you get to a situation where you can end the fight. Naturally, since the Jiu-Jitsu fighter trains following this logic everyday, he always possesses a clear sense of direction and the technical knowledge to implement his strategy the proper way. In contrast, other martial arts offer little more than the idea of hitting until the opponent drops.

      The secret is in the philosophy

      The genius in Jiu-Jitsu goes well beyond the amazing moves used. It is exactly the way of facing a combat that puts Jiu-Jitsu way above all other arts. Our goal is not to score points, but to make the opponent surrender. With this in mind plus the philosophy of “minimum effort for maximum efficiency,? the technique of Jiu-Jitsu adapted in Brazil by the Gracies got more and more refined. And using this combo to determine the sequence of moves and the general strategy that runs each fight, the BJJ fighter gets, consequently, very close to victory. Master Helio, who tested his art in the battlefield for many years, goes beyond: “To beat Jiu-Jitsu, only if you know Jiu-Jitsu or by accident. If you fight 100 times, you may lose once or twice, but you’ll win all the others.? Once, during an interview, Fabio Gurgel, one of the greatest names in the sport, made a keen observation on the subject: “Jiu-Jitsu is a perfect art, but the human being fails at times.?

      Many years ago, during a seminar in the USA, Rickson Gracie explained the BJJ philosophy through a nice example. In order to demonstrate the efficiency of the mount position during a fight, he placed a student of his on top of some spectators, all of them practitioners of other martial arts. On purpose, all the chosen people were bigger than his student. The first one tried hard but could not escape from the bottom. The second one exploded like a mad bull, and eventually reversed the situation. Rickson then asked the guy to try again, this time against him. In a few seconds, the big fellow had given Gracie his back and was trapped in a rear naked choke. The master explained that the only thing that’s worse than being mounted is to offer your back. And he resumed the exercise, this time choosing to only keep the opponent on the bottom. After one minute of insistent attempts, the guy finally gave up. Rickson then sat among the group of almost 50 people and said:

      “Well, this is what I wanted to teach you people. Because he is tough (points to the big fellow), even without Jiu-Jitsu. I’m not saying you only have a chance of escaping using Jiu-Jitsu. I try to give a certain problem, and then I offer the easiest solution. He is tough and I think it is hard for anyone to keep him on the bottom, but suppose it’s a 240lb man on top. Then it’s different. Suppose he is recovering from a cold and has no endurance. He will fight for a while then get exhausted. The point is: if we can use leverage in every occasion, it will make things easier. And what we want while facing a stronger opponent is the easiest way of fighting him. You shouldn’t come here (to the seminar) to try and do like he did. That’s a waste of energy. It works, but if he is in a worse situation, if he’s in adverse conditions, he is going to need other options. And you are here to learn the best way. Some people are born tough; they are fast, strong or have a good heart for fighting. These qualities alone represent 50% of a win in any street fight. But in adverse conditions, it is just not enough.?

      In other words, it doesn’t matter whether you are an athlete or not. By following the Jiu-Jitsu philosophy, you’ll become a more efficient fighter. Apply this same philosophy to every other aspect of your life and a new universe will open up before you.
      Now, like my friend Kid Peligro likes to put it, Go Train Jiu-Jitsu!

      *JP was GRACIE Magazine Special Reporter from 1999 till 2002 and NOCAUTE Editor in 2002. Currently, he's GM Europe Correspondent and also teaches Jiu-Jitsu in Copenhagen, Denmark

      Jiu-Jitsu is fought with the Gi. Period

      Comment


      • #4
        "The secret is in the philosophy"?

        That sounds an awful lot like when I've been telling people here that it was the concepts and approach that were more important.

        In fact, sounds like the pioneers of MMA say a lot of the same things that I've BEEN saying.

        Between these Gracies articles and Mick Coup's article on sparring, its become more and more clear that people are catching on to the fact that just because you dress something up to resemble something else doesn't make it something else.

        Seems like the few here that have been saying that ain't the only ones who feel that way in the world. How's that for theory?

        Comment


        • #5
          pUke's oft repeated agenda is finding ways to justify his weakness and lack of any real experience.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
            An awful lot of assumtions in this post.
            I am nowhere near an expert on Martial arts, but even I can see the glaring holes in these "theories".
            You are keeping in mind that the Gracies wrote this, right?

            Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
            I don't know where you get the idea that someone who is a sports mixed martial artist can't fight anywhere else but in a ring or octagon. I just don't understand that type of reasoning.
            Not so much can't, but more likely to get you killed. And I didn't get the idea from anywhere. The Gracies, who started the MMA format, wrote these articles and have them on their website, Arieson.

            MMA has become nothing more than a kickboxing match where you grapple if you think you can’t beat your opponent standing, or you grapple when you get hurt in order to buy time. In either case, both approaches NEED time, but you won’t have the luxury of time to effectively use either of those approaches outside of tournaments and dojos. So why even bother wasting time learning something that depends on an element that doesn't exist outside of fabricated sport rules?

            Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
            Unless you live in the worst gang infested area, or are in Prison, or in a war zone, what CAN'T modern sports martial arts do for you?
            Contrary to what you believe Arieson, the world is more violent than it is not. There are more poor areas than there are rich areas. There are more poor people than there are wealthy or middle class. Violence is all around us. Just because you haven't been a victim yet doesn't mean that hundreds a people a day don't get killed and victimized. Some people are just honest with themselves about that. Others pretend that sports are all we need to defend ourselves. People who have actually been in real situations know better.

            Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
            It occurs to me that sports martial arts give you endurance, skill, and a chance to test yourself in a situation that is far closer to real combat then anything else.
            So a kickboxing match prepares you the skills to fight in the street? When your resisting opponent uses kickboxing to fight you, do you think that’s an accurate representation of how someone is going to mug or rape you? I notice above that you wrote …

            Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
            Unless you live in the worst gang infested area, or are in Prison, or in a war zone
            … does that mean that people who get mugged and raped and killed all live in gang infested, war zones or in prisons? A Hispanic man was recently beaten to death by 7 high school students in NY, and the town is very affluent and has very little crime. Still, shit happens. Are you saying that he should have kickboxed the 7 teens? Or maybe he should have taken them to the ground and worked a little ground and pound on them one at a time while the others stayed off by the side awaiting their turn. After all, had he studied MMA he would have been prepared to take the knife shoved into his chest by one of the teens because MMA fighters are used to taking hard shots right?

            Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
            You can learn all the RBSD techinques you want, but if the first shot rattles your brain, are you so sure you can complete any techniques?
            Why ask that question? I offered on this site a news article where a man who trained under one of the same men that I have managed to fight and win against 3 men AFTER being stabbed. The peanut gallery here at Defend came out in numbers to say that it was luck that he disarmed them, wounded them and survived.

            And just so you know, you can't train your jaw. If you get hit and rocked, you're rocked. I don't care how many packs of gum you chew a day, you can't build up your jaw, temple, ear, bridge of nose or eyes. So your statement is invalid. MMA fighters aren't any more prepared as far as durability to be hit where it counts. A man who isn't hit cleanly can continue. A man with a weak chin who is hit cleanly won't. That nonsense about "being hit before to be able to take it and keep going" is bullshit. Lee Murray, an MMA star, got stabbed and he couldn't keep on going like the man in the news article I posted.

            So where does that leave your point?

            Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
            A sports martial artist, used to being hit, and used to hitting full strenght, has a much better idea of combat then someone punching air or practicing techniques on a compliant partner. By compliant, I mean a partner that is not going off script, and can and will catch you with a suprise hard punch to the face.
            If you think that Modern Street Self Defense has students punching at air then you are way, way out of your depth. You’re trying to liken modern SD to 70’s karate, which goes to show that you really are here to talk shit and not because you actually understand anything if you really believe what you wrote.

            Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
            I think a lot of martial artists are very jealous and resentful of MMA, especially you, Uke. Frankly, MMA is a reality check, and the best thing to ever happen to martial arts.
            I’m resentful? I think that's a big assumption on your part because we are affiliated with men who teach MMA in our organization. It’s just that no one is stupid enough to try and make pretend that MMA is or even like Street Self Defense or vice versa, as the two are absolutely not interchangeable. No one that I know does such ignorant things once they’ve been exposed to what real SD is.

            Originally posted by Mr. Arieson
            I understand part of what you are saying: If I read you correctly, you believe firmly that science and technique win out over brute strenght. Thing is, MMA involves all of these factors.
            MMA/NHB/boxing/wrestling/kickboxing = Walking. Stop walking to chew gum. Stop chewing gum to juggle. Stop juggling to hum a tune.

            SD/and any well crafted system really = Walking while chewing gum, juggling and humming a tune together fluidly.


            MMA’s entire idea about addressing ranges is backwards. You shouldn't have to stop one thing in order to be able to do another. There is no fluidity. There is no real transitioning. There is only “kickbox from mid range, brawl and knee in close quarters, and submit or ground and pound on the ground". That boils down to mediocre kickboxing skills with BJJ on the side in case you can’t beat him standing up or need to go down because he’s overwhelming you.

            Without fluidity, your close quarter skills better have George Foreman fight-changing power and effect. Fluidity is found in just about every single fighting form that attempts to engage in close quarters. No method puts all its eggs on one or two shots. Overkill is the flavor of the day. And when you watch MMA, the close quarter skills boil down to brawling with punches in exchanges, and muay thai clinching followed by knee attempts. If you think street fights play out like that you watch too many movies.

            But the real story here that you’re not getting Arieson is that all those articles were written by the men who started the beloved format that you think is the best thing to happen to martial arts! I didn’t write those articles. The Gracies did.

            So you’re basically stating that the Gracies … who have been fighting in the MMA format for over 60 years … are making a lot of assumptions even though they have more experience in this format than anyone else? Well then as a self proclaimed “nowhere near an expert on Martial arts” I guess you’re qualified to make that call!

            Write them a letter and tell them because your debate over this article is with them, not me!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Uke View Post
              MMA/NHB/boxing/wrestling/kickboxing = Walking. Stop walking to chew gum. Stop chewing gum to juggle. Stop juggling to hum a tune.

              SD/and any well crafted system really = Walking while chewing gum, juggling and humming a tune together fluidly.


              Needless to say:

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by jubaji View Post
                pUke's oft repeated agenda is finding ways to justify his weakness and lack of any real experience.
                Why not go and find out in the same way I suggested to Garland, jubaji? If you feel what I write is such theory, then why not find out for yourself?

                Or are you really just a mouthpiece for those less capable who don't won't to talk shit outright themselves?

                What I write is only a theory to you online until its proven a fact offline. But facts can't be forced on cowards who will only bitch and moan on the internet.

                You game? Or are you going to put your hands over your ears and continue to scream about the world being flat regardless of the proof waiting for you?

                And just in case you had a stroke or something and didn't notice, I didn't write the above articles. The creators of your beloved format did. I'm sure you knew that, but its convenient for you and some other clowns here to ignore that FACT.

                Well, if and when you ever man up, maybe you'll address the fact that the men who created the format you are so fond of have said and are saying the same things that I have been for years.

                I predict more bitching and moaning from you.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Uke View Post
                  Why not go and find out in the same way I suggested to Garland, jubaji? If you feel what I write is such theory, then why not find out for yourself?


                  That's funny. Little boy, I've been out and about in the real world "finding out" shit for a long, long time. You should stay in your little clubhouse where you're safe with your theories and your magic markers.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jubaji View Post
                    That's funny. Little boy, I've been out and about in the real world "finding out" shit for a long, long time. You should stay in your little clubhouse where you're safe with your theories and your magic markers.
                    Exactly what I expected. We always knew you were an a-hole, but we see now that you're a loud mouth coward who when put to a decision for all his chips just shrivels back into his pathetic little prairie dog hole.

                    You've been out finding out shit for a long time? Hehe ... by any chance is this some of what you found out:

                    Originally posted by jubaji
                    That's just it, "this is technique X and that is technique Y" doesn't really come up when shit's going down. It's not like cartoons and bad movies where the 'hero' calls out each technique as he hurls it at his opponent. A lot of things, like when to push and when to pull, when to be strong and when to 'yield' and all that are somewhat universal and certainly things I was familiar with long before I got to TCMA. At a certain level, a punch is a punch is a kick is a kick is a throw, etc. Not meaning to be evasive, but that's how I see it. Or maybe I'm just not considering your question carefully enough right now. I'm just popping in and out of here while working on other things that require more concentration. Source: http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/c...tml#post312050
                    ROFL!!!! So, you've been out and about learning that a punch is a kick is a throw but x and y don't come up when the shit is going down? Pushing, pulling and yielding are universal but not like when cartoons are hurling techniques at opponents?

                    You have exposed yourself as being a first rate clown who pretends to practice MA and study MA, but holds back from disclosing too much because you are "just popping in and out and working on things that require more concentration" despite having authored over 9,000 posts. You spend more time here than any other member! You have all the time in the world to concentrate on what you might have said. You just don't know shit and it shows every single time you try to elaborate.

                    So continue on with your pointless antics, but know that you can always find out first hand whenever you want to test out these so-called "theories".

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      An interview with Rickson Gracie

                      "I see the time of the fights is being diminished, that the athletic part of athletes is more and more involved with hard training, sometimes even steroids. So people become super-men, super-strong, super-aggressive, super-explosive, and all that energy added with the low time limit reduces the need of showing technique. You have to be a bull, to get in there and win with your horns, not with your mind. So this natural development of the sport makes technique be left aside a little bit. This makes fighters level themselves down, because the sport no longer demands them to pay attention to detail. If you take off the gi and go into a five minute bout where you can use all your strength at once, nonstop… Why even bother about detail, technical carefulness? What you need are muscles!"

                      – Rickson Gracie on how he sees today’s MMA fighters
                      Just as I said ... MMA has become all about size, strength and aggresiveness and less and less about technique. I've also gone on to say that the only high level techniques that anyone will see in MMA/NHB type competitions are the ground submission wrasslin', thanks to the Gracies. The standup skills seem exciting, but put those guys in K-1 and watch just how mediocre their skills are in the context of what they do in the ring!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Uke View Post
                        You've been out finding out shit for a long time?


                        Yes, little boy, that's what I said. Since you're all about the 'reality' (yeah, right ) tell us about how all your little theories have worked out for you outside your club/training hall/whatever. C'mon little boy don't tell me you make all this noise about reality based self defense but you've got absolutely no reality upon which to base your pissy attitude.



                        We're all ears, little boy.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Uke View Post
                          The standup skills seem exciting, but put those guys in K-1 and watch just how mediocre their skills are in the context of what they do in the ring!

                          What a shock! They are not training for K-1, ya moron.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jubaji View Post
                            What a shock! They are not training for K-1, ya moron.
                            Many of them have! And all of them have lost embarrassingly. Or is that just another of many things you didn't know?

                            and FYI ... when you come running back to mention Crocop, he was k-1 before he was Pride. That's why he was able to dominate ... he wasn't bred in the mediocre NHB circuit. Fedor had been competing before Pride as well, which is where he honed the skills to dominate his mediocre NHB opponents.

                            Schooling you is getting boring and repetitive. Aren't you supposed to know about this stuff? Isn't this your niche? Or are you just stupid all over?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Uke View Post
                              Many of them have! And all of them have lost embarrassingly.



                              And? I'll bet most wouldn't do so well in a tennis tournament either. They train for something else. Someone who does well in one area will not necessarily do well in another. How stupid are you that this needs to be pointed out to you? Did you suffer a brain injury or something?

                              Comment

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