What is wrong with this picture?

[squidd]

I dunno, where do you live?

manila, philippines

[squidd]

I dunno, where do you live?

manila, philippines

[mrniceguy148]

(quick recap of thread for those that missed it)

mrniceguy148: women don't have any power.
Mulan: yes they do.
mrniceguy148: well, women shouldn't have any power.
Mulan: you're saying women shouldn't have any power.
mrniceguy148: no, I am saying women shouldn't have any power.
Mulan: but you are saying women shouldn't have any power!
mrniceguy148: yes, yes I am.
Mulan: I knew it!!
mrniceguy: ...?
Mulan: .......!!!

I think that the real issues go much deeper than this. How does it really make you guys feel knowing that a women who thinks like this actually has a say in who our elected representatives will be? Pretty scary, huh?

[mrniceguy148]

(quick recap of thread for those that missed it)

mrniceguy148: women don't have any power.
Mulan: yes they do.
mrniceguy148: well, women shouldn't have any power.
Mulan: you're saying women shouldn't have any power.
mrniceguy148: no, I am saying women shouldn't have any power.
Mulan: but you are saying women shouldn't have any power!
mrniceguy148: yes, yes I am.
Mulan: I knew it!!
mrniceguy: ...?
Mulan: .......!!!

I think that the real issues go much deeper than this. How does it really make you guys feel knowing that a women who thinks like this actually has a say in who our elected representatives will be? Pretty scary, huh?

[mrniceguy148]

If the employer's goal is to hire the best person for the job, then applications shouldn't list a person's race or sex, just their abilities and qualifications. No quotas involved..

-- An employer should be allowed to ask for any information that he wants. It’s his business (i.e., his personal property) so you either answer the questions or you don’t get the job! Period!

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." ~Inigo Montoya~.

--- Yes “WE”; as in the majority of men and women!

You keep making this statement, yet have no facts to back it up that have anything to do with working women in particular. Most kids today are raised in two-income households, and most of them turn out just fine. The only real difference is that today's kids grow up notably less racist or sexist.

-- I'm not saying anything that isn't backed up by facts and stastics. I've given you an accurate history lesson which you've chosen to ignore because it doesn't fit your agenda. You're the one who's saying everything is just great while the numbers say the exact opposite.

While murder rates seem to be down, rape and robbery statistics have been rising for decades.

My sister is a teacher in the high school where she and I graduated from. That particular township is much more affluent now then when we were living there as kids. However, she says that the quality of students is much worse there today than when we attended that school. She says she’s seeing more and more fights, weapons and an overall lack of respect for the teachers. Since money isn’t a problem in that town, she blames the high level of student problems on all the divorces, single moms and do-nothing step-dads. I have to think that this isn’t an unusual test case……

I can only give you documented trends and correlations. It’s up to you to either think logically or think anything that pleases you. Like anything else, the hard facts will only come out after it’s too late to do anything about it.

I am not for only women working and the men staying home with the kids. I am also not for only men working and women staying home with the kids. I am for the choice to do either, neither, or both. Furthermore, if construction jobs made up 100% of the available jobs, then maybe I could consider such an argument.

-- Without construction workers this country would grind to a standstill! Without construction workers, who’d build homes and fix the roads and bridges ? That’s why I say that it wouldn’t make sense for the men to stay home and the women go off to work.

If questions like, women in the military, women cops and women firefighters had been put on a national referendum before being put into law then do you really think that the voting public would have wanted to see their tax dollars squandered on this type of gender-bending experiment within these male dominated essential public services?

Probably not!

However the taxpayers had no say, and the heads of those institutions had no say either. Instead the whole process was railroaded, and then rammed down our throats by a few feminists and some stupid politicians who must have been thinking that they’d actually be getting the girls from Playboy’s “Women In Uniform“ issue.

All the more reason why we should be throwing women out of government sponsored fields like the military, fire fighting and the police force. As with construction jobs, women don’t belong in these fields either. My tax dollars shouldn’t have to pay for second rate service in these arias. If I were a cop I’d be pretty pissed off if I got stuck with a partner who was a female!

However, times have changed. Now nobody is stopping women from doing anything they want to do, but that doesn’t mean that I have to like it. However, my only recourse is to just voice my displeasure and to vote with my wallet. Obviously I’ll never vote for a female politician. I’ve seen time and time again that even economically conservative women have a feminist agenda, so I just cannot trust any of them. Female lawyers and doctors won’t be getting any of my business either. Now, if I could only convince my wife to stop watching that God damned Lifetime Channel!

.A guy who stayed home to raise the kids would not become a laughing stock in his community unless his community was filled with people like you. I would see such a man as inspirational and courageus; a bright hope for the future of freedom and humanity. Most mature, educated people would maybe make a few jokes on the subject, but soon get used to it and respect it as their friend's choice. By the way, most mature, educated people would also poke fun if a female colleague chose to stay home. But again, they would soon forget about it and accept it. You say men have "standards" they're expected to live up to? Expected by whom? Who made those standards, exactly? (I'll give you a min to figure this one out) That's right, men made up those silly standards, and now you're complaining that they're restricting you? Well I'm sorry, that's what you get for trying to force gender roles.

Men, however, made no subsequent efforts over the decades to change the rigid standards they set for themselves, and now whine about having more rigid standards than women. I'm happy not all men are like that. There is a growing men's movement that celebrates the historic diversity of male self-expression, from courageous warriors to loving fathers..

-- The men’s movement is made up of a bunch of sorry wimps. That’s why nobody takes these clowns seriously. Why am I not surprised that you support this bunch of losers? Any guy who stayed home with the kids would be a laughing stock in his community, and rightfully so, Normal women, including our mothers, hold us up to standards. If a guy doesn’t measure up he’ll look like a fool or he’ll lose the girl or whatever. It’s been that way since the beginning of time. You still don’t understand! We don’t want our standards, changed, lowered or feminized. That’s a feminist idea which shows a total lack of understanding of the male thought process. Where have you been?

So let me get this straight, a married woman should:
~Not have goals in life besides staying home, raising kids
~Lose her personal freedoms and always obey her husband
~Lose her own name and individual identity and become invisible to the outside world
~Become completely dependent on a man and be at the mercy of his financial successes and failures
~Believe this is the ideal all women should aspire to be
If your wife agrees to all of this... well then that's just damn creepy..

-- You obviously have a low opinion of marriage and of stay at home moms. To bad you didn‘t grow up in a different era.

The older generation of women had class but some of these new generations of women seem to have more balls than some of the guys! What can we expect next from these lovely ladies? Chewing tobacco and a fake mustache maybe? They might as well just go for it because they already look ridiculous in a policeman’s uniform, army dress and a business suit! It’s a sad statement that more and more women seem to want to be men. If a women really wants to be a guy then she should at least get the sex change first. Then I’d have no problem with any of this

"if humans were meant to fly, we'd have feathers!" I don't think there's any woman in the world that would want to have a penis (transsexuals aside). Being a man or woman is a biological thing, not an ideological thing. If a woman is intelligent enough to be a successful scientist or a doctor, she remains very much a woman. Your morality can label her a man or a hostile mutant space creature, but in reality she is just a person who happens to have been born in a female body..

-- If a women is intelligent enough to be a successful scientist or a doctor, and actually goes through with it, then she might as well just complete the transformation by having the sex change. She’s already a man as far as I’m concerned and after a sex change she wouldn‘t have to worry about sexual harassment. Yuk!!! Most of them even talk like men?*^$&@#~

Again, you are losing all objectivity and economic ground here. You're basically just going off your own convulted morality now, no matter how much it clashes with the actual world. But hey, most people do that. If you found a woman to agree with you, that's great for you. The rest of us can get along, have careers, and raise kids just fine without archaic moral baggage not founded in reality weighing us down.

How about this question... Do you put yourself and your career above your children just because you have a job? Do you have ambitions that go beyond "raising children"? Or do you see your job as a way to care for your children? Pretty deep, huh. Why does staying home and raising children not a quality a good father should have? Why are children a strictly female concern when it takes two people to make a child? Why is the mother and father not equally responsible for how much quality time they spend with their children? Why does a father have to be some cold, distant figure that's only around to "discipline his sons.".

-- I wasn’t trying to be objective. I was only giving my opinion.

When I said that I was only saying it because I’d rather not get involved with a “career women”. If I were single right now I’d look for someone who wasn’t career minded. I have absolutely nothing to give to a women who might earn twice my salary. What would she want me for anyway? The imbalance in the economics of that kind of relationship would only create contempt on both sides. Instead, I’d rather just find a cashier or a secretary who doesn’t care too much about her “career” and who might actually be more into the relationship than her stupid McJob. Where did you ever get the idea that educated career women are desirable to most men as a marriage partner? Most guys don’t consider a women’s salary to be of any importance and if I was dating a highly paid “career women” then I’d actually consider her fancy salary to be a deal breaker.

My job is just a means to an end. I do it because I have to and if circumstances change then I’ll retire in a heartbeat. Work is actually a barrier to my dreams in life which require my time but don‘t necessarily produce any income, and I only wish that my wife didn’t have to work so much either. You feminists are really missing the boat with this “work gives freedom” Dachau bullshit. Get real! Most women will never be great doctors or scientists so why sell them this line of crap when you know and I know that most of them will end up being either low paid secretaries or else wage slaves and ball busters on some stifling corporate merry-go-round. Pretty deep, huh…….

The main reason why a father should never stay home with the kids while his wife works is because it sets a bad example, especially for his sons. When the kid grows up his wife will probably be expecting him to bring home a full-time paycheck so he’d better be ready for it. That’s why the father absolutely has to set a good example for his sons by actually going to work! Bruce Springsteen said it best. In case you didn’t know.

“All I can think of is being five years old
Following behind you at the beach
Tracing your footprints in the sand
Trying to walk like a man.”

You’ll never see a guy write something like this about his mother. There’s certain things that a boy can only pick up from his father, or else he picks it up on the street. Therefore, if we’d like to see future generations of boys grow up to be civilized gentleman instead of a bunch of flunkies and gangstas then we need to get as many strong fathers back into the family picture as possible.

Fathers don’t necessarily have to be cold and distant, however they do need to be firm, consistent and fair. Like I said, boys and girls learn differently and because of this difference they need to be separated in some cases. Basically, boys respond best to a kick in the ass and girls respond best to positive feedback. That’s why fathers are necessary in the family structure No boy fears his mother That’s why single moms often produce sons who turn out to be either failures in school or else outright gangstas

That's funny, I hear love songs on the radio all the time. But yeah, there's more songs about sex too - coming from both male and female artists. And that's just cause, as you said before, today's society is a lot more sexually open and experimentational. And, contrary to what you are implying, this has more to do with women believing that sleeping with different guys is sexual liberation, rather than with men doing anything drastically different..

-- Those love songs are probably sung by women. It’s usually the women who pressure guys to get married.

These days it’s just not hip for a male artist to sing love songs. If he did he’d be labeled a “wimp-rocker” and nobody would buy his records. However, the guy bands, especially the rappers, play up the sex angle because they know that love isn’t supposed to last anymore, most marriages end in divorce, and meaningless sex is about the only thing that they feel they can realistically depend on from many of today’s women. It’s a sad statement about our crumbling value system, and the rappers often refer to these sexually liberated women as “bitches” and “hos”; and don’t think for a second that the white male listening audience isn’t picking up on this vibe. Where does it all end, I wonder?

Yes, down with human rights! Down with integrated schools! Down with environmental awareness! Down with religious freedom! Those greedy, self-centered, liberal bastards! God knows you so-called moral conservatives have opposed these policies every single agonizing step of the way. Women in the workforce is part of of basic human equal rights, by the way. I understand that you see personal freedom as "frivolous," but some of us rather value it, and would put it last on the list of things to reexamine.

--- Women in the workforce was something that was forced upon our society and has now become accepted. Where is it written in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights that being an American guarantees anyone the right to a job? If you value your personal freedom so much then you have much to reconsider.

[Mulan]

Without construction workers this country would grind to a standstill! Without construction workers, who’d build homes and fix the roads and bridges ? That’s why I say that it wouldn’t make sense for the men to stay home and the women go off to work.

By that logic, you might as well say that men should do all the intensively physical jobs of heavy labor and fighting, and women should do all the intensively intellectual jobs of science and politics.

If questions like, women in the military, women cops and women firefighters had been put on a national referendum before being put into law then do you really think that the voting public would have wanted to see their tax dollars squandered on this type of gender-bending experiment within these male dominated essential public services?

*sigh* I think the public wants everybody to have equal opportunity so that the most qualified person would get the job.

I think that the real issues go much deeper than this. How does it really make you guys feel knowing that a women who thinks like this actually has a say in who our elected representatives will be? Pretty scary, huh?

Hmm, I'm also curious... How DOES it make "you guys" feel knowing that a "woman who thinks like this" can vote? How does it make you feel that a guy who thinks like this can vote?

I don't really concern myself with worrying guys like that can vote. I mean, voting to me is about giving everybody a say, and at the end of the day you hope the sane people win. Sometimes that doesn't happen, but that's why there's always November '04 hehehe. Anyhow, this debate isn't really going anywhere. Defending women in the workforce and rationalizing correlations was bizzare enough, but the women voting thing is the last straw and I just can't take this topic seriously anymore. All I can really say is... you can go angry and bitter like that to your grave if you choose to, but WE (the majority of this generation's men and women) rather like the way things are going, and are really looking forward to the future. That is, a future where all the current tweaks in the non-equalities (such as differences in standards) are worked out and everyone has opportunities open to them based on ability rather than race, sex, or anything else. No society is perfect, but most of us like the pro's and con's of the current one rather than the pro's and con's of the one 40-50 years ago.

There is no battle of the sexes. The sexes are equal and interdependent and they always have been. It's just that "civilized" society and written laws are finally catching up to something that's as ancient as the human species. I would hope the majority of males are increasingly not threatened by women who are their equals in mind, opportunities, or even income, and want partners with their own personalities, opinions, and goals. If the two of them choose to have children, the father and mother would raise them together. Not mold them into a prescribed stereotype of what they should be, but encourage them to be themselves and develop their own dreams. This is something that has been denied both men and women in USA's past. It won't create a perfect world, and it won't happen overnight, but it will create a world full of individuals instead of cookiecutter clones. Those individuals would be like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle that seek the one that fits them just right. They might make mistakes, but once they found the right person, the payoff would be phenomenal. Raising children is not an end in itself for either men or women. It is about raising human beings who will be autonomous for the greater majority of their lives, and deserve the equal chance to do with their lives whatever they want.

That is a world I hope we are working towards. Why do I have to resort to corny sentences to say something I feel is self-evident to most current-generation people. XD If you believe a woman would only want you to support her or for your income, then either you have a self-esteem problem or you've met the wrong kinds of women. Marriage to me is not a financial arrangement, it's an emotional one based on deep personal compatibility. Human society is based on change. Obviously somebody wasn't happy with the 50's/60's society, so they changed it. If enough people aren't happy with this one, they'll change it too. That's what democracy (and benevolent dictatorship) is all about!

[Mulan]

manila, philippines

That's really far away O.O

[squidd]

That's really far away O.O

i will cross oceans for you, my legendary Chinese she-male...

oh, please don't reject me... please don't say no... say you want to date me as much as i want to date you... please be careful with my heart.

[Tom Yum]

Your looking for the rebound, I see.

[Mulan]

Hmmm interesting

[Thai Bri]

Who knows. He may be your soul mate?

[squidd]

Hmmm interesting

you mean me? o most endearing ms. fa?

(for those that don't get it, the complete name of the legendary chinese hero mulan is actually fa-mu-lan)

[Mulan]

Eh? I'm still confused as to how the topic even switched, let alone what degree of teasing it is. o.o;

[squidd]

I think that the real issues go much deeper than this. How does it really make you guys feel knowing that a women who thinks like this actually has a say in who our elected representatives will be? Pretty scary, huh?

aw c'mon. live up to your name mr. nice guy... while you've been givin mulan all this hatin', i'm doing the oposite and givin her some lovin.

[Thai Bri]

I agree.

The young woman is nice enough. A bit like our own Little Demon.

Mind you, I still enjoy taking the mickey........