Krav Maga

[grappler-jordan]

Steve,

I still think your understanding of BJJ as an art (without any disrespect intended) could use some further increase. I agree that you have to address more then one situation AND that BJJ will not help you deal with multiple attackers in a 3 hour session. However, BJJ is not nearly as complex as you have made it out to be. Most of the escapes and reversals in BJJ are simplistic in nature and easy to perform. Sure there are advanved transitions and advanced submissions, but those are not applicable for self-defense.

In a 3 hour BJJ session you COULD successfully teach a women to escape a mounted position or potential rape position with ease, ESPECIALLY against an untrained opponent. Does BJJ take a long time to master? Yes, it does, the art has depth and strategy that can take years to understand. Does BJJ allow a student to become proficient on the ground quickly, most certainly. I will give a specific example. ---

2 weeks ago a new student came with a friend of his to train with me. His friend (Jared) has been training with me for about 3 weeks (5 or 6 1.5 hour classes). The new student (Blake) has a few years of martial arts experience in TKD and Boxing, and his stand up is honestly not bad, but he has no ground fighting experience. Jared (bear in mind who is still a complete novice in reality only 5 or 6 classes, and is about 20 pounds lighter then Blake) consistently took Blake down controlled and submitted him that night. Also when we worked drills, Jared consistently (from a non-dominant position i.e. side-mount or mount) escaped or reversed, gained dominant position and controlled or submitted his opponent. ---

This story is one of many that are exactly the same, in fact I experienced the same thing roughly 2 months into my BJJ training when a new student came to class and it was like day and night in our ability on the ground.

BJJ is not a complete self-defense system and is most often trained as a sport not for self-defense. However, do not discount it's effectiveness or it's importance. I have trained multiple grappling arts and BJJ is by far the most effective I have found. As for women's self-defense, if one of your women students is caught by suprise and taken to the ground and pinned by a stronger, heavier opponent, will she be able to escape? I am an advocate of using BJJ as a part of a larger Self-Defense picture that includes many arts (some sport, some combative) to build a solid foundation for self-defense skills. I do not believe BJJ or Grappling as a whole is the end all of Martial Arts or self-defense, but I believe it's importance cannot be discounted or even diminished.

I appreciate your posts and respect your knowledge on the self-defense subject. You also have your right to your own opinion on the topic. I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Jordan

[SamuraiGuy]

Normally I've been always arguing that Krav Maga should be looked at seriously on these forums.

But in this situation, I'm going to say its not worth it.... and dont take this the wrong way, but its because your a woman.

Woman, in general dont have the same physical traits as men, thats obvious, so I wouldnt recommend it for small guys, or anyone unfit.

When I did Krav Maga, the tactics and stuff they used, like constant attacking, just wouldnt work for people with a sizeable physical disadvantage. For instance I was 17 when I did KM, I noticed the 14, 15 year old girls, raining down blows and what not. Excellent, IMO they would frikcing demolish any girl they ever fought. Now I'm really not trying to say that women are weak or anything, but I know had tey been raining down blows on me, I would have just grabbed them and throw them on the ground (if I was attacking them, I dont make it a point of fighting girls).

Krav Maga, is based on instincts, it will in a short time, make a person with a physical advantage, or even physical similarities, murder the average person in a street fight.

When your at a physical disadvantage, I think there are far far better ways to learn to defend yourself.

[szorn]

Steve,

I still think your understanding of BJJ as an art (without any disrespect intended) could use some further increase. I agree that you have to address more then one situation AND that BJJ will not help you deal with multiple attackers in a 3 hour session. However, BJJ is not nearly as complex as you have made it out to be. Most of the escapes and reversals in BJJ are simplistic in nature and easy to perform. Sure there are advanved transitions and advanced submissions, but those are not applicable for self-defense.

As I mentioned my understanding is pretty indepth without actually investing hours each week practicing the skills. However, as an "art" you are correct in that BJJ is not as complex as some others out there. But we are talking about hardcore self-defense here, not "art". In that regards BJJ is too complex.

In a 3 hour BJJ session you COULD successfully teach a women to escape a mounted position or potential rape position with ease, ESPECIALLY against an untrained opponent.

That's my point- youd COULD possibly teach a woman to defend against one or even 2 basic positions in that time but you could not teach her to defend against all of them. Also, you mention an 'untrained opponent', which is irrelevant. A rape or assault situation is not a sport match, in most cases it's a life-or-death struggle. Even if the attacker is not trained in the traditional sense does not make them any less vicious or dangerous. In fact they are often more dangerous due to the fact that they are unpredictable.

Does BJJ take a long time to master? Yes, it does, the art has depth and strategy that can take years to understand. Does BJJ allow a student to become proficient on the ground quickly, most certainly. I will give a specific example. ---

2 weeks ago a new student came with a friend of his to train with me. His friend (Jared) has been training with me for about 3 weeks (5 or 6 1.5 hour classes). The new student (Blake) has a few years of martial arts experience in TKD and Boxing, and his stand up is honestly not bad, but he has no ground fighting experience. Jared (bear in mind who is still a complete novice in reality only 5 or 6 classes, and is about 20 pounds lighter then Blake) consistently took Blake down controlled and submitted him that night. Also when we worked drills, Jared consistently (from a non-dominant position i.e. side-mount or mount) escaped or reversed, gained dominant position and controlled or submitted his opponent. ---

This story is one of many that are exactly the same, in fact I experienced the same thing roughly 2 months into my BJJ training when a new student came to class and it was like day and night in our ability on the ground.

Even if this new student was able to learn to do this in a matter of minutes that doesn't speak to the system or the teaching method as much as it does to the student's ability to learn and grasp the material quickly. One good student doesn't make a good system, especially when it comes to realistic self-defense. Also, as you mentioned this particular student had previous training and athletic ability. But again, I would ask how much realism was included in the training.? Did this include multiple attackers? Were weapons involved (obviously trainers)? Did the student attempt to evade or de-escalate prior to going to the ground with the attacker? Did the student attempt a realistic standing defense prior to going to the ground?

As for women's self-defense, if one of your women students is caught by suprise and taken to the ground and pinned by a stronger, heavier opponent, will she be able to escape?

I can't guarantee that any student, male or female will successfully utilize the skills that I give them. What I can guarantee is that I give them the best possible skills that are available for such situations. I can guarantee that the skills are easy to learn, easy to retain, and easy to use under stress. Also, I can guarantee that when the the training course is over that they have demonstrated that they can successfully defend themselves in most ground positions against larger, stronger, and more aggressive male attackers wearing protective gear. I also cover the various aspects of mental and emotional conditioning that are needed to successfully use these skills. However, like most things in life I can only empower them with the knowledge and show them how to enhance their natural skills, they have to make the conscious decision to apply waht I give them. I can also guarantee that I sleep very well at night knowing that I have given people realistic knowledge that may someday save their lives. I will never have to feel guilty if a student is severly injured or killed in an altercation because I chose to teach them material that was too complex or wasn't easily retainable under stress or that was based on "art" and "tradition" rather than survival.

On a similar note- I have had students successfully deal with these types of real situations without ever having to resort to physical tactics or allowing themselves to be taken to the ground. All from taking only one 3 hour class.

I am an advocate of using BJJ as a part of a larger Self-Defense picture that includes many arts (some sport, some combative) to build a solid foundation for self-defense skills. I do not believe BJJ or Grappling as a whole is the end all of Martial Arts or self-defense, but I believe it's importance cannot be discounted or even diminished.

I appreciate your posts and respect your knowledge on the self-defense subject. You also have your right to your own opinion on the topic. I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

Jordan

As I mentioned before I do understand your objectives. However, I tend to look at this from the opposite perspective. We build self-defense skills by actually implementing natural and instinctive survival skills into the training first. We analyze real assaults and then utilize skills that helped other people survive and/or escape those situations. We essentially learn from other people's experiences and enhance those tactics that people use instinctively. Our foundation should be based on reality not "art". After the foundation is built if the student should choose to pursue the "art" or "tadition" then so be it. Atleast they will have a survival system to fall back on before they have mastered the "art" for defensive and combative applications. I remember when I first started training in the martial arts, I heard something that would later come to represent the norm in my martial arts education. My instructor said something along the lines of "you will have to relearn everything- how to stand, how to walk and how to move and it will take you approximately 2 years before you can use these skills to protect yourself". The question that immediately came to mind- what if an attacker doesn't want to wait two years before assaulting me? I think you get the picture. Another quote from one of my primary instructors comes to mind here as well- "fighting first, systems second".

I appreciate your posts and your opinion as well. The world wouldn't be a very good place if we all agreed on everything. However, the advice you gave to me can apply to you as well. Look into how real assaults occur and learn what takes place in the victims' mind and body. Interview assault victims and listen to what they have to say. Do some research into the modern self-defense systems being offered out there and see what kind of success rates they have. I am sure you will be surprised as to how many teach effective programs, even ground survival programs without the inclusion of traditional grappling skills.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

[km101]

I train in a school whose primary focus is in KM. Our instructor stresses strong to the point techniques to defend from any attack and then put distance between. The school makes an honest attempt to train as real as possible including multi attackers and weapons. The instructor also teaches and incourages cross training in Mauy Tai KB and Ju Jitsu and KAPAP. We have a few females in the classes and all would put up a very good fight if put in that situation. KM may focus alot with close handed stikes but it also places a lot of focus to knees, elbows, eyes and throat stikes. I do believe the instructors make the school. It doesn't matter what the style is without the right teacher it won't work

[MSand114]

isn't krav maga the art that israeli military forces learn? where they use strobe lights and stuff to train?

[km101]

exactly...the israeli military along with U.S. local and federal police agencies all claim it is proven in combat.

[piousmaximus]

I studied krav maga (kmaa) for a year and some, got up to level 3. I suppose all schools are different, but at my place, I dunno if I got much benefit beyond the choke/wristlock/bearhug releases, and of course the mindset of the relentless attack.

We sparred alot, but it was mostly kickboxing-type sparring...timed rounds, for an hour. Tiring? Yes. Preparing for a real fight? Not so much. Also, most striking training was done with bag/boxing gloves on. We did very little open hand striking, and basically nothing in way of conditioning our hands for real combat. Halfway thru level 2, my instructor got on a big groundwork kick, so we started doing a bit of that. But even then, it seemed more sport oriented, ie, 'go for the armbar, dude!'

Again, I'm sure schools vary (not to mention the various km associations), but from what I've experienced, the benefits reaped from 3 levels of training could have been easily condensed into a few months.

[figgis]

Steve,

I still think your understanding of BJJ as an art (without any disrespect intended) could use some further increase... BJJ is not nearly as complex as you have made it out to be.

I don't think that you understand how simple techniques need to be to survive the degradation in motor skills that comes from a life or death situation, which was Steve's point. I'd say that few if any BJJ skills are simpler that shooting a handgun, but LEO drops from around 90% on shooting ranges to about 15% in real world fights.

In a 3 hour BJJ session you COULD successfully teach a women to escape a mounted position or potential rape position with ease

You believe this, yes, but I'm a afraid you don't prove it.

I will give a specific example. ---

2 weeks ago a new student came with a friend of his to train with me. His friend (Jared) has been training with me for about 3 weeks (5 or 6 1.5 hour classes). The new student (Blake) has a few years of martial arts experience in TKD and Boxing, and his stand up is honestly not bad, but he has no ground fighting experience. Jared (bear in mind who is still a complete novice in reality only 5 or 6 classes, and is about 20 pounds lighter then Blake)
consistently took Blake down controlled and submitted him that night.

Sorry - but a 20lbs weight difference between two guys is almost trivial. If you want to understand what a 120lb woman's situation is in fighting a 200lb guy, try imagining that 200lb guy fighting a 350lb steroid driven jail house monster. The male anatomy is much more biased towards upper body strength, and grappling is a strength-vs-strength game.

Besides underestimating the wall women have to overcome in grappling with a man I'd suggest that you're also assuming that a BJJ contest is much more like a real fight than it is. It's much harder to put an arm bar on someone who can break your fingers, bite, tear your ears off, gouge your eyes and punch you in the throat. This doesn't make BJJ completely invalid of course, but you should expect to see a big difference in real world efficacy.

As for women's self-defense, if one of your women students is caught by suprise and taken to the ground and pinned by a stronger, heavier opponent, will she be able to escape?

Using BJJ, almost certainly not, in my experience. Which includes have taken apart my jj class's senior student and instructor in my first grappling experience outside the playground - I was a lot stronger and it does make a difference.

I am an advocate of using BJJ as a part of a larger Self-Defense picture that includes many arts (some sport, some combative) to build a solid foundation for self-defense skills. I do not believe BJJ or Grappling as a whole is the end all of Martial Arts or self-defense, but I believe it's importance cannot be discounted or even diminished.

The question is, is BJJ ever relevant to a woman's sd needs? It's not quickly trained, strength and mass matter a lot, and it's sports-rule confined. If I was pinned down to the floor by a 350lb extra from Oz, I'd strike at his eyes and throat and maybe use those small joint techniques that are banned from BBJ because they do too much damage. Almost the definition of a good technique for all out sd is that it's banned from sports combat like BJJ. Techniques should also be VERY simple, target spots that don't make muscle to injure and which aren't better armoured on heavy opponents, be easy to chain together in a continuous assault, and be easily augmented without any big change in technique by any weapon handy like a small knife, nail file, etc. All techniques, strikes especially, should also work as much as possible upright, on the ground, or while sitting. I think Larry Jordan's "Dirty Dozen" book does a good job by these criteria.

My final argument against BJJ as a woman's sd technique is "Cops". I've never watched a full show but I've seen over and over again that it takes more than one BJJ trained LAPD officer to take down a strongly resisting opponent of the same size. This does not bode well for a woman who may fight the same opponent as the cop but who has only one quarter of his strength, a small fraction of his training, and none of his experience in coping with physically dangerous situations - while at the same time facing a much worse situation than most police officers ever have to.

Otoh, I'm sure that BJJ is a great sport, and a terrific tool in the armoury of a LEO or bouncer, although I'm not sure how it would compare to other grappling systems.