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  • Reality

    Just a few days ago I had a conversation with a friend. He has been training with me off and on for several years. He has seen my material change and develop over the years and he has put in the time to develop this material and make it work. The conversation vectored around the use of some older material. He had this romantic notion about the contribution that things like dead pattern stick drills, Wing Chun/Kali energy drills and footwork box patterns had on his “overall” development. He thought he was better for training them, even though they have since been discarded. I completely disagreed. I told him that I thought it was wasted time. The only contribution to his game made by those things is a broader understanding of martial arts in general. That might make interesting dinner conversation but it won’t help you when someone twice your size is trying to destroy you.

    Some individuals (like myself) spent a lot of time perfecting a number of different martial arts techniques throughout the late eighties and into the nineties. An interesting thing happened in the early nineties though that changed everything. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu showed us that training against a resisting opponent could actually functionalize techniques to the point where they work even though your opponent doesn’t want them to. Boxing was much the same and predated BJJ in the US but the martial arts community seemed to like the mystic over the obvious. Energy drills and box patterns can make an instructor look omnipotent but they don’t help the student from a self defense standpoint. That alone makes them a waste of time if your interest is in “self defense”.

    I came to see that boxing, BJJ and clinch (Greco, Thai, wrestling) nullify Wing Chun. Karate, Tai Chi and Kali. I was willing to throw away what I saw didn’t do the job even though I had invested a lot of time and “energy” into it. This is one of those confusing things about Bruce Lee. After he discovered western boxing he was blown away. He knew that it had an edge over Wing Chun in training and application. He knew he could beat Wing Chun men with it. Yet he still trained and taught Wing Chun. I can only conclude that it was due to an emotional attachment he had formed, or his ego, which could not let it go. I look at some of the old material that I was taught as a disease. I not only want to be rid of it personally, I also want to see it eradicated from my general surroundings.

    Some have used the argument that it is good to have structures like energy drills so you can still train when you are an aged senior citizen. That statement alone should show you how useless these types of structures are. However the point needs to be made that I probably will not want to train when I am in my golden years. I started training martial arts out of a sense of insecurity. I wasn’t sure how to handle myself in a violent confrontation. I was young and I thought there would be some overall life changing value to training. The only thing that came out of it was learning how to fight. It was not the stairway to heaven. It wasn’t even a spiritual stepladder. Later I became enamored by the arts I trained and learned to appreciate them. That was my sophisticated stage. Once I was responsible for the well being of a family I came to a real understanding of what I needed to do:

    *Learn and train high probability tactics (which will mostly be gross motor function) in order to protect your family while you are young and strong enough to make any of it work.
    *Forget about the sophisticated elements that rob time away from the functional elements. *Train with weapons and firearms.
    *Try to keep yourself in decent shape along the way.
    *Do not be swayed by propaganda, marketing or the politics of any organization.

    So, as I continued to talk with my friend I gave him example after example of how his thinking, in my opinion, was flawed. The thrust of the examples I gave him was that if you trained “that way” and had to fight for real how well would you do. He concluded that he would not do so well. He still wanted to say that it had somehow contributed to his “development as a whole” but he was finding it harder and harder to make that argument. He did agree with my assessment when all was said and done.

    I guess it can be best summed up like this:

    “Even if you don’t see the light, you’re still gonna feel the heat”.

    It makes sense to train for reality when you realize what’s at stake. And I’m not talking about money or your pride. I’m talking about your own well being and the well being of your family, friends or the innocent.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Demi Barbito View Post
    I came to see that boxing, BJJ and clinch (Greco, Thai, wrestling) nullify Wing Chun. Karate, Tai Chi and Kali. I was willing to throw away what I saw didn’t do the job even though I had invested a lot of time and “energy” into it. This is one of those confusing things about Bruce Lee. After he discovered western boxing he was blown away. He knew that it had an edge over Wing Chun in training and application. He knew he could beat Wing Chun men with it. Yet he still trained and taught Wing Chun. I can only conclude that it was due to an emotional attachment he had formed, or his ego, which could not let it go. I look at some of the old material that I was taught as a disease. I not only want to be rid of it personally, I also want to see it eradicated from my general surroundings.
    .
    Hi Demi,

    Didn't Bruce keep a few techniques from wingchun because he thought they were useful? Techniques such as lead finger jabs, elbows and low kicks certainly have there place in self-defense.

    I think he chose the boxing delivery system over the wingchun delivery system since it is obviously more mobile and efficient, not just because of boxings punches.

    I agree with what you say about other arts being able to overcome wc, but that doesn't mean the art is useless in terms of self-defense - still the time studying the patterns that you've mentioned could be seen as wasted time (since your ultimate goal is combat over martial arts in the traditional sense).

    Interesting observation.

    PS -this has nothing to do with the discussion; on Game of Death (I think?) Bruce fights Bob Wall. Bob comes in throwing a flury of karate punches, Bruce evades, ducks and gets a double leg on Bob Wall - slamming him into the sand.

    Instead of trying to get into Bob's guard, he just holds onto one of his legs and punches him in the groin - that's combat (and it pre-dates UFC). Isn't that cool?

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Demi,

      Your path-I have been on since 1972. Everything follows a fad. I have seen every martial artist and their style fail in some manner-including JJ. (UFC is not so "U")

      http://www.lyon-karate.com/forums/in...st=0&#entry655

      We, my fellow colleagues/students and I, were trained from two primary instructors whom have, since the 60's- 70's selected the wanted and non-wants.

      Every art has it pro and cons. Every art has something to learn and useful.

      Every artist and art, when subjected to somethng outside of their norm (like UFC rules) will post others to fail where others prevail.

      As I became older, I am not occupied with the idea of fighting. Instead I am occupied with the idea to avoid fighting.

      I am no longer in a society whereas I have to fight to survive.

      The society I am in has law enforcement and other protection needed. (Per I am certified to carry a forearm in case I happen to be in a hostile area)

      As per your discussion with your friend whom seems to waste his time-all martial artists do the same on a society of violence that should be prevented and understood.

      In other words, I knew a guy whom have trained many years in BJJ only to get shot to death for not understanding and taking precautionary methods of today's society. All of his training was gone at the sound and discharge of a gun.

      Such training would have to be understood as the what is the goal(s) or reason(s) for it. What is the immediate environment? Doesn't everything start off with a romantic notion?

      I have known people who have not trained and survived a confrontation.

      I have known people who do not have firearms and survived a confrontation.

      And college colleague and myself conducted surveys on the necessary of self-defense/martial art training and firearm ownership.

      Comment


      • #4
        """The society I am in has law enforcement and other protection needed."""

        Not when you need them. You will always be your own first reponder. The cops will come and use their pen to write a report about what happened.

        """Didn't Bruce keep a few techniques from wingchun because he thought they were useful? Techniques such as lead finger jabs, elbows and low kicks certainly have there place in self-defense."""

        Yes but they way WC delivers them and trains them was and is still not functional. Boxing was in your face full of function and BL knew it.

        """In other words, I knew a guy whom have trained many years in BJJ only to get shot to death for not understanding and taking precautionary methods of today's society."""

        It goes without saying that gratuitous fighting is for the emotionally disturbed and should be avoided whenever possible. BUT, when you are forced to fight, your training should be functional as to actually give you a chance aganst a real attacker.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Demi Barbito View Post
          Boxing was in your face full of function and BL knew it.


          I just quoted this because I wanted to see it again

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sagacious Lu View Post
            I just quoted this because I wanted to see it again
            Nice, Lu...lol. Nice.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Tom Yum View Post
              Nice, Lu...lol. Nice.

              Hey you edited it

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sagacious Lu View Post
                Hey you edited it
                Yeah, do you do security work?

                Your profile seems to match someone I know from hot-lanta.

                Comment


                • #9
                  No, my job doesn't have anything to do with martial arts or defense or anything. Why do you ask?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sagacious Lu View Post
                    No, my job doesn't have anything to do with martial arts or defense or anything. Why do you ask?
                    You seemed like someone I knew from there. No particular reason; randomness.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Right on

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Demi Barbito View Post

                        Not when you need them. You will always be your own first reponder. The cops will come and use their pen to write a report about what happened..
                        You did not take in the whole statement...other protection needed. (Per I am certified to carry a forearm in case I happen to be in a hostile area)
                        Youre missing the point. I am talking about the immediate environment/town/society.

                        Many small towns and communities have less change of people getting into the need to fight.

                        My parents did not train as fighters. My sister, uncles, aunts, grandparents....the point is that most people DO NOT.

                        Also, I am not stating that there is no place for it. Like first aid is your first response until and ambulance or getting to a hospital.

                        I see many people not going through the extensive training patterns and not geting into fights. Having no need to do so. So are we to think that people who do have a sub-mentality to desire a fight?

                        Originally posted by Demi Barbito;239902QUOTE
                        It goes without saying that gratuitous fighting is for the emotionally disturbed and should be avoided whenever possible. BUT, when you are forced to fight, your training should be functional as to actually give you a chance aganst a real attacker.
                        Again, you missed the point. Most of society ARE NOT MARTIAL ARTISTS. Many of those whom are rely solely on what they do instead of being verstile and learning aspects OUTSIDE of the phycial applications.

                        Comment

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