MT: What do you think of men and women sparring?

[GranFire]

I will not abandon my nephew to humiliation.

Humiliation? where did that enter the equasion?

There is a great difference between losing a sparring match and getting the daylight beaten out of you...with a huge amount of ground inbetween.

[Ghost]

In terms of the confidence and becoming glove shy etc i think people either have it or they dont when it comes to fighting, you can nurture to a degree but its either there in their heart or it isnt.
As we are quoting ill quote beavis and butthead " you cant polish a turd"

Not that those that cant fight are turds, there is no need to fight, but you get the point lol.

[Guest]

In terms of the confidence and becoming glove shy etc i think people either have it or they dont when it comes to fighting, you can nurture to a degree but its either there in their heart or it isnt.
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Sorry mate, I disagree. "Heart" and "Fighting Spirit" are man-made romanticised concepts that are easily explained by physical, psychological, emotional exposure and conditioning. The human brain is just a biological organism, to develop the desired "natural" responses you simply have to alter the parameters through training and conditioning. A perfect example is the Military. I doubt the Royal Marines would have a 32 week training program if they didn't believe in the ability to alter someone's responses to pressure, stress and violence.

If all fighting nature is inherent from birth then every single self-protection class ever taught is a lie and a con. You can teach someone how to be a fighter, if I didn't believe that I would never teach a class again.

[Ghost]

Sorry mate, I disagree. "Heart" and "Fighting Spirit" are man-made romanticised concepts that are easily explained by physical, psychological, emotional exposure and conditioning. The human brain is just a biological organism, to develop the desired "natural" responses you simply have to alter the parameters through training and conditioning. A perfect example is the Military. I doubt the Royal Marines would have a 32 week training program if they didn't believe in the ability to alter someone's responses to pressure, stress and violence.

If all fighting nature is inherent from birth then every single self-protection class ever taught is a lie and a con. You can teach someone how to be a fighter, if I didn't believe that I would never teach a class again.

Those that cant pass Royal Marine training lack fighting spirit perhaps?

In terms of heart and fighting spirit i think its a character trait. A part of someones personality. I would suggest the reason the Royal Marines have a 32 week training course is 1) to weed out those that dont have it and 2) to teach those that do what they need to be able to join unit as marine.

Ive personally noticed that most people that come into the gym dont have it. Thats not a failing on their part, they just dont have it.
Ive said this before but ive found many people that look shit hot in the gym but thats the limit of it.
Interesting idea that it can be taught but i really dont beleive it because ive seen too many people that just cant do it, ever.

Whats the pass rate on the royal marines selection course?
If your logic were correct then everyone would pass no?

[Knuckles&Knees]

Humiliation? where did that enter the equasion?

There is a great difference between losing a sparring match and getting the daylight beaten out of you...with a huge amount of ground inbetween.

GranFire,

I'm not trying to argue in bad spirit or anything - I mean by that I'm not trying to be hostile to anyone - I just have some strong feelings on this (I think we all do on some issue in this world).

Understand too, my view is also partially shaped by the culture of boxing or at least the two boxing gyms I've had some experience training in. Perhaps it's different in different boxing gyms or different boxing cities around the world, I don't know? I know gyms in Philly have always had a hardcore reputation (so too the entire country of Mexico).

In the gym I spent the most time, I noticed a number of things. One of the coaches in particular would have one of the experienced fighters the novice fighters was sparring (and keep in mind the experienced guy would go light on the guy) stop punching and allow the novice fighter to just punch away on him when he noticed the novice fighters heart giving away. In fact he did this once with me when I was sparring a guy that outweighed me (by a lot), who was about my same age, a Navy veteran, very experienced amateur, and hit like a ton of bricks. I traded blows with this guy like an idiot and then when my energy got sapped (from his hammering hits he wasn't even throwing full force) I began to panic inside myself and started running around and throwing timid taps.

By the way, I've seen that guy *literally* knock another experienced boxer through the ropes. He's even demolished at least one pro boxer in a sparring session. I've seen guys in the gym refuse to spar him out of fear.

My point is... it's not all about just about "getting the daylights beaten out of you." I've learned - or rather it has begun to be *conditioned* in me - that I can (and should) still *release* punches when I'm out of wind and outclassed in the ring or being hit by a person with hands of stone. My coach allowing me to just hit the guy without him hitting me back may or may not have had something psychologically to do with me overcoming that *point of obstacle* when I came to it the *next time.*

I don't claim to be a psychologist or to know a lot about how the human mind works but I'm convinced people can be psychologically built up or psychologically torn down. Every persons strengths and weaknesses are different too. Some people (regardless of sex) are just more daring than others.

[GranFire]

well, I don't box.

But the rules for the training session still apply I suppose. The more experienced partner helps the lesser one out. In which shape or form depends.

It doesn't do a body good to be the novice to get knocked through the ropes by the expert. but it also never hurts ( ) to know that you engage into this type of physical activity sooner rather then later you will get hit - hard. And it really does not matter by whom - even a novice can land a lucky shot to make you hear the Angels sing...

[Knuckles&Knees]

I doubt the Royal Marines would have a 32 week training program if they didn't believe in the ability to alter someone's responses to pressure, stress and violence.

If all fighting nature is inherent from birth then every single self-protection class ever taught is a lie and a con. You can teach someone how to be a fighter, if I didn't believe that I would never teach a class again.

Thank you. And I agree fully.

I know what Ghost is saying, and on some level I'm sure there is some truth in his assertion, maybe or maybe not, for certain some people seem to be born with more "heart" than others. I still don't think you should just dismiss other more timid.

Plus, the timid who often get bullied and dismissed or repeatedly humiliated can go in various directions as they age. A number of them are not unknown to pick up firearms and commit school shootings et cetera. Some just become explosive and violence prone as adult, determined never to let what happened to them in the past happen again.

[Knuckles&Knees]

well, I don't box.

But the rules for the training session still apply I suppose. The more experienced partner helps the lesser one out. In which shape or form depends.

In general that is true, even of boxing, however boxing culture is a bit of a different animal than say your typical TKD dojo culture. You have to kind of be aware of who you spar with in boxing - especially if one of the trainers are not around - because some cats think every sparring session is a war for a belt title. And believe me... if you're having a hard time even one solid minute left in a round can seem like an eternity.

It doesn't do a body good to be the novice to get knocked through the ropes by the expert. but it also never hurts ( ) to know that you engage into this type of physical activity sooner rather then later you will get hit - hard. And it really does not matter by whom - even a novice can land a lucky shot to make you hear the Angels sing...

True. I remember some cat (I think he might have been a newly turned pro) telling me something pretty much along those lines. Even as a pro you continue to learn from others.

[GranFire]

In general that is true, even of boxing, however boxing culture is a bit of a different animal than say your typical TKD dojo culture. You have to kind of be aware of who you spar with in boxing - especially if one of the trainers are not around - because some cats think every sparring session is a war for a belt title. And believe me... if you're having a hard time even one solid minute left in a round can seem like an eternity.



True. I remember some cat (I think he might have been a newly turned pro) telling me something pretty much along those lines. Even as a pro you continue to learn from others.

LOL, we have a few that think they are the re-incarnation of the Great One... but usually they learn quick...

[Guest]

Those that cant pass Royal Marine training lack fighting spirit perhaps?

In terms of heart and fighting spirit i think its a character trait. A part of someones personality. I would suggest the reason the Royal Marines have a 32 week training course is 1) to weed out those that dont have it and 2) to teach those that do what they need to be able to join unit as marine.

Ive personally noticed that most people that come into the gym dont have it. Thats not a failing on their part, they just dont have it.
Ive said this before but ive found many people that look shit hot in the gym but thats the limit of it.
Interesting idea that it can be taught but i really dont beleive it because ive seen too many people that just cant do it, ever.

Whats the pass rate on the royal marines selection course?
If your logic were correct then everyone would pass no?

No, two things. 1, You are altering the question now. I wasn't answering the question "how do you make someone go the distance in their training" (Marines, martial arts or otherwise) I was answering the question as to whether "you can teach someone to be a fighter". Sure, that person needs to stick around so I can do my job, but thats a given.

2. People don't persist in their training for a multitude of reasons, to take the Marines as an example many people simply do not have the physical attributes to succeed. I think just to put it down to lack of fighting spirit is a lazy philosophy (in good spirit my friend).

You come from combat athletics, and thats just a process of natural selection. If a guys walks in the gym and shows athleticism and some determination, he'll get to the front of the queue and receive attention. If someone walks into a Boxing gym and, as you would put it, doesn't seem to "have it" then they are often neglected and will lose interest. I know thats how it needs to be sometimes, especially if the gym wants good competitors and champions. But, here is my point, they walked into that Boxing gym to be taught how to fight...to be TAUGHT how to fight.

I was a pussy when I started training. I didn't want to spar, get hit or have to work that hard. But I had teachers who were very patient with me, figured out how my mind worked, what pushed my buttons, and what motivated me. Progressively my exposure to pressure and contact was increased, and my responses to those stress situations altered as time and experience went on. I was the epitome of "not having it" - but I had great instructors who taught me how to "find it".

If you want to call that "it" fighting spirit then fine, I think to be honest mate this is going to come down to different belief systems, which is cool. Personally, I firmly believe in the ability to train and develop someone's responses to the nature of combat. Teaching athletes how to fight is a piece of cake. Martial arts isn't martial arts if my 59 year old Mum can't be taught to defend her life. To think there is no point because she just won't "have it" is not good enough for me, nor should it be for anyone who calls themself an instructor.

[Ghost]

I understand what you are saying but there are many people that cant fight and can spar really hard just as there are many that will simply never have the coordination to get to any real level.
I guess agree to disagree. Id argue you had that spirit in you but you didnt know you had it but some others simply dont have it.
I dont think this approach would make a bad instructor, you teach everyone to the best of THEIR ability as best you can. Perhaps my view on this is different because my background is different.

[Guest]

Mate, your points come thick and fast and tend to confuse the original premise. If I can try to sum up so we can do something better with our Friday night!...

I don't deny that some people just aren't cut out for fighting, I totally agree with you. I'm not claiming that I can teach ANYONE to fight. Not at all.

I don't deny that some people have a higher mix of natural attributes, which makes them more suited to fighting, I fully agree with you.

My point, in response to your original statement, is that I believe you can teach someone to fight - I don't believe that it is either there or it isn't.

Over and out.

[Ghost]

Mate, your points come thick and fast and tend to confuse the original premise. If I can try to sum up so we can do something better with our Friday night!...

I don't deny that some people just aren't cut out for fighting, I totally agree with you. I'm not claiming that I can teach ANYONE to fight. Not at all.

I don't deny that some people have a higher mix of natural attributes, which makes them more suited to fighting, I fully agree with you.

My point, in response to your original statement, is that I believe you can teach someone to fight - I don't believe that it is either there or it isn't.

Over and out.

You mean that those that can you can bring it out of them, yes i completely agree lol. my point was simply that there are some out there that cant which was why i said either you have it or you dont. I didnt mean to imply that its always evident first the word go. I think we are agreeing but i didnt put it well in my initial statement and implied something more literal.

[Guest]

No mate! (this is going to be a long night ). We still differ.

You are of the belief that we "bring something out of them" i.e. that it is inherently there. Yeah, maybe sometimes, but my point is not that. My point is that I believe you can teach it to someone who walks in without it. That is where we need to agree to disagre.

For the sake of everyone having to sit through this, lets call it a night!

[Knuckles&Knees]

Ghost,

I take caution speaking on the British Royal Marines because from what I have been told all British Royal Marines must become commando qualified (which requires either a scuba course or a HALO course or both). Jumping out a plane takes some degree of nerves.

That said, I reckon the Royal Marines are like U.S. Marines along the factor line of: You're on the government's time and money.

The government is not going to spend it's time - which equals money - slowly nurturing anyone along in a military boot camp.

But a person being mentored or instructed over months or years can grow. People can change (for better or worse) and people can grow. That process might take several years though or for some it might take a month or two.