Outnumbered and unarmed

[Charles77]

I'm new here and I've never before taken up a martial art, but I'm more and more interested. So please excuse my ignorance. Let me tell you a short story that has affected me, and has motivated me to 1) learn SOME type of self-defense, and 2) influence my wife to learn some type of self-defense.

If any of you followed the news in Miami 3 weeks ago, you know the story. A couple, graduating from high school went to South Beach to celebrate their 5 month anniversery. As they walked near the beach, a vehicle stopped along-side them, 5 thugs forced them inside (threatening them with a gun). As the men drove along the interstate, they raped the girl. As her boyfriend tried to fight back, they repeatedly stabbed him and threw him out the speeding vehicle. He survived, and is currently in good condition. But further along the freeway, they stopped, dragged the girl out and executed her. All 5 are in custody, and facing the death penalty, but of course that does nothing to undo the events or bring back the poor girl.

This occurred on the same beach where many of us in Miami walk with our girl/guy for a romantic night out. It could have happened to any of us.

My 2 questions:

What could the couple have done (what would any of you have done)?

Faced with 5 men and a pistol, which martial art/self-defense system would be most useful in keeping me and my wife alive?

[Nthman]

I hate to say it but I really don't think there is a martial art that could deal with that. The only way out of that situation would have been to run as fast as possible in the other direction at first sign of the gun, once you are in the van you are F(ucked....



A horrible thing for sure.

[PentjackSilat]

Against insurmountable odds the only thing that will keep you alive is the vicious, gruesome, animalistic urge that arises from hell to mame and dismember beings who, with no sense of sanctity of life, would do such a tragic thing.
The inhuman strength and desire that is demanded, the necesary loss of morality and compassion, and the fuel to protect and survive no matter what the costs and no matter what you must live with the memory of doing to another mother's child...is all that will be there when there is not even the dimmest hope.

[defendu.com]

Our worst nightmare...

As you can tell from the other responses on the board, there is no simple answer...

Fighting multiple attackers is a huge problem....
Fighting an armed attacker is a huge problem...
Defending yourself AND a loved one is a huge problem...

The rule of thumb for the first two is always to use a weapon...

In this type of situation, the use of deadly force is warranted and probably what any reasonable person would expect.

Fortunately you live in Florida, so you can have access to additional levels of self-defense (firearms).

Just as cops have options along the force continuum, you as a private citizen need to have options.

And, more importantly, you have to BE YOUR OWN BODYGUARD. Obviously the cops cannot protect you and if you want to live a life that includes basic pleasures such as being able to walk on the beach, you'll have to be responsible for your own security.

A tragic situation, and one that is possibly our worst nightmare as martial artists and DT instructors.

Realizing that there will never be a martial art that could save someone in this situation, you can defend yourself with the proper tools and the proper mindset of the "martial artist". For you AND your wife, the firearm is the great equalizer. Get training, get training and then get more training. Compete, practice, get more training, practice and compete.

But don't JUST rely on your firearm. You'll probably never run into the same situation as you've outlined, but you'll run into plenty of garden variety insults, fights and attempted petty crimes against your person. Do some more research on the board here and find a couple of schools or styles you like then go for it! Training is fun and will definitely change your life for the better.

There are some great shooting schools around your area. I think John Shaw is close. Massad Ayoob is up in the Northeast. You can always go out west and train at Gunsite. Andy Sanford is good. Gabriel Suarez is good. Thunder Ranch in Texas is good. Walter Rausch is good.

You might also consider joining the International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA). I would advise against joining IPSC since their competition is not as realistic.

Good luck.

Brad Parker

[Sean J]

Unarmed

There is really not much you can do when it comes as far as described here except when you have lots of guts, skill and much, much more luck.

The only realistic protection is to develop more than average instinct of seeing such sitiuations develop at a much earlier stage so that you can escape before the enemy gets too close. Carrying a firearm offers some advantage, but makes you by no means invincible. Especially not if the bad guys have the advantage of surprise. In short terms: Even if you carry a mac 10 and a beretta when you take a walk you still have to have some sense of tactics. A good starting point is to ask yourself: Who would I mug and rob on the street and how would I go about it.

Sean J

[Hagrid]

If this was a random act of violence it probably could not be avoided. Unfortunately if you go out at night away from other people you run the risk of something like this. I think it is unusual but not unheard of. Awareness is your first defense, and escape should be your ulitmate goal. Sounds like once the car pulled up it was too late. Being caught outnumbered and unarmed leaves little hope. The best defense is to not be there in the first place. Sad but true.

HAGRID

[Macho]

Fight for Your Life

I hope my suggestion will help all friends in the forum. To deal with the situation, there are in fact many options to take, though it seems like we (the victim side) have very little choice.

It is very correct that we should not be there in the first place, but there can be risk and danger no matter where we are. So, the first requirement is that you are always aware of your surrounding, and be able to make a response before some criminals get too close to you.

When being threatened by a gun from a car, in fact you are luckier than being threatened by a gunman standing next to you. If you run, he has to get out of the car to chase you, or he will need to start the motor. If you are skillful and confident enough, grasp his gun and disarm him all in a sudden.

Most of the time, we are not defeated by another person, we are defeated by surprise and fear. Let fear work for you, turn it into rage, make surprise your friend, respond in a way that attacker does not expect.

If disarm is out of the question, run immediately. It is better to run to somewhere the car cannot go, or at least run to the opposite direction of the car's movement. Look at it this way, his gun may just be a replica. Even if it is real, most criminals are not well-trained in using weapons, and their shooting sucks. Out of 100 times a shot is fired to a running victim, only 4 hits the target, and it is unlikely the shot would be lethal.

Most of all, you always end up worse if you obey the criminal and go into his car, you give up the control and chance of resistance. It is better to get shot on a road and found by others who would call the police, than being taken away to some isolated location, and tortured to death slowly.

Regarding martial arts style, Gracie Jiujitsu, Brazilian Jiujitsu and Combat Sambo offers some very nice and clean movement against a gun. For fighting multiple attackers, you may consider Muay Thai, kickboxing, Jeet Kune Do.

[Charles77]

Thank you for your input Macho--very good, enlightening post.

[kengar]

a bad situtation

only to things to do.

1) Act with ruthless intent.
2) Never, never get into a vehicle. Never, no matter if they have a gun or not. Statistics show if you enter the vehicle you are dead. Very few people survive.
3) Never get in a vehicle.

Its sad because there is really no good quick fix to get you out of that. Obviously you are not old enough to carry a pistol, and that too does not guarrantee 100% safety. You best bet is to be in larger numbers.

[Lost Ronin]

I have to agree with all the people on this forum. Your greatest weapon against such a horrible attack is awareness. You have to see this coming before it happens that way you can run as fast as possible from the situation, running is your best bet. I have a girlfriend, I love her to death, and you have to agree that you would't want to put your wife in any unnecessary danger. There is no other way out of that situation but to run. Screw your pride, when you and her are alive and well, nothing else matters. As for defending yourself if it does happen... you are pretty much dead, even a hand gun won't be that helpful ( although it is a good tool for self defense). You see, if you find yourself in that situation you made a mistake because you weren't vigilant! As for your wife, I recommend adrenal stress scenario training, you know, the courses where they simulate attempted raping and muggings. Do a search on RMCAT on the internet. Keep safe, god bless.

[Hagrid]

Adrenal Stress Conditioning training is great - you can also try looking up Impact/Model Mugging. In addition to being great training it's a blast!

HAGRID

[RBFC]

I'll agree that you should never get into a vehicle when being "forced" as in this case. Statistics prove that victims who allow themselves to be taken to the SECONDARY crime scene have a very low chance of survival. In this instance, the gun was initially used to coerce the victims to obey the criminals' demands. At this point, it's likely that the criminals did not intend to shoot the victims. Once a crime had been committed, eliminating the witnesses was the motivation for the violence.

Also agreed to run away from a gun-wielding attacker who makes demands. He's using the gun as a "tool of persuasion", and his primary interest is NOT in killing you at this time. The moments you buy when running away, where he has to decide how to change his game plan, can often get you enough distance that you will not be shot. Statistics also bear this fact out. This is a common dilemma faced by those who are "car-jacked" as they are getting into their vehicle. The best defense is to throw the keys into the air (giving the attacker something to look at momentarily) and run away in a zigzag fashion. His interest in the car vs. his interest in subduing you vs. his concerns of being caught as he chases/shoots at you......... buys you time to make distance.

Lee

[osopardo]

The best self defense system I've found is a healthy dose of common sense.

1. Don't do careless stupid things that indicate to predators that you are easy prey. Don't make yourself vulnerable!

2. Don't go walking in isolated areas alone just for the romance of it. Stay where there are plenty of other people to witness and aid. Hang out with a group of friends. Keep the one-on-one romance behind locked doors.

3. Don't be defenseless; learn a self-defense system (not a martial art - that's just for sport), get a handgun and take the firearms courses offered by local law enforcement agencies, get a gun permit and keep it current, pack heat.

4. Work out; discipline yourself to keep your body strong, flexible and fit. Do lots of sprinting (not jogging).

5. Don't accept rides from strangers

6. Don't get into an elevator alone with someone if your gut instinct is fear.

C'mon, people.. common sense.

[Great Sage]

Re: Fight for Your Life

Originally posted by Macho
If you are skillful and confident enough, grasp his gun and disarm him all in a sudden.

I don’t know of anyone who can or has disarmed a real gunman... Needless to say, all the training in the world will not prepare you for such a scenario, so just run... Don’t even think about disarming unless it’s a last option.

Originally posted by Macho
Regarding martial arts style, Gracie Jiujitsu, Brazilian Jiujitsu and Combat Sambo offers some very nice and clean movement against a gun. For fighting multiple attackers, you may consider Muay Thai, kickboxing, Jeet Kune Do.

Again, martial arts are only theories... As a matter of fact, my BJJ once demonstrated the most effective knife defense. The moment I pulled a plastic knife, he was out the door.

For fighting multiple attackers, I would recommend fleeing at all cost and not standing around trying to use martial arts techniques. I don’t think any Martial Art can compensate for more than one attacker, regardless of their claims.