The Truth and Lies About Women's Self Defense

[Fighter]

I agree

Hagrid is correct.

EG: During the day a park is filled with kids playing happily than at night, all the hobos, steet punks and drug addicts.

EG: Alley ways, by day there empty, filled with trash. Than at night people may go there to do shady deals etc.

True, ever one should beleve in freedom, but not every place is the smae night and day.

[Erica]

re

I think that people can decide and feel what places are dangerous trusting their intuition. I am not saying there are not any dangerous places at night, but I am saying that you can use your intuition to decide if the place is dangerous or not rather than just say I will never go out at night. I also believe people should always use their awareness while out- day or night. The advice to "not go out at night" not only limits peoples freedom, but it is almost impossible to follow for anyone.

Plus ---
U.S. Jutice Dept. States:

"While overall violent crimes were more likely to occur during the day than at the night, some crimes exhibited different patterns.
Fifty-four percent of incidents of violent crime occurred between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m. " (Violent Crime, 4/94. Summarizes 1973-92 trends in rape, robbery, and assault from the National Crime Victimization Survey; homicide data from Vital Statistics of the United States, National Center for Health Statistics; and 1992 murder data from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports. NCJ 147486)



So you really can't say that more violent crime happens at night b/c it happens during the day time.

I believe that many people believe this myth that just because you don't go to certain areas or just because you don't go out at night or just because you never wear a short skirt, or just because you live in " .. " ..etc.. you won't be victimized. And this is not the case.

[Rockwell]

Man, I wish I had come into this discussion sooner, I can't even remember who posted what, but here are some thoughts I wanted to throw in there...

I definitely agree that self-defense is self-defense...at least when it comes to the physical training. There really shouldn't be a distinction between "men's" and "women's". For those seeking to defend themselves against an aggressive attacker, what works, works. If you are weaker and smaller than your oppenent, it will be much harder, regardless of your sex. But the techniques and principles remain the same.

This being said, I think certain things need to be addressed and emphasized differently when training women. In general, women are conditioned by society to avoid violence. Hitting is wrong, wrestling around with someone is gross, etc. Boys, while generally taught that unprovoked violence is wrong, are often encouraged to participate in combat sports or high contact sports such as wrestling, boxing, football, etc. So they learn fairly quickly that hitting and wrestling and pushing and shoving is ok SOMETIMES. I think that girls/women often have to be "de-conditioned" into realizing that sometimes it IS alright to hit someone, to hurt someone, to do things to them that they don't want to happen. Once they can get into that mindset, then they are ready to start really training.

There was some debate as to whether or not telling women to avoid certain situations and behavior is of any benefit to them.
The problem here is that we can look at society in two ways. One is how it "should" be, and one is how it is. Women should be able to wear tiny skirts and tight tops and go to shady bars, without having to worry about being harassed and groped by men. They should be able to go jogging late at night in dark areas. They should be able to get drunk at frat parties without ever having to worry they will be taken advantage of. But unfortunately...VERY unfortunately, that is not reality.

The reality is that there are places and scenarios which are not safe for women. They may not even be safe for men, but because of how society has conditioned both men and women, they are even more dangerous for women.

The reality is that there are some vicious animals out there posing as humans who are predators. Straight up predators who enjoy hurting people. Not many, but they are out there. Sometimes they are your next door neighbor. Sometimes they attack you in an alley or on a trail when you're hiking in the woods.

The reality is that there is a large percentage of the male poplulation that falls into the "drunk, horny, stupid asshole" category. And those guys, by themselves and in groups, have done horrible things to women, sometimes in very public places.

I think it's vital that these realities be addressed when discussing self defense with a woman. Is it enough to say "don't wear provocative clothing in certain places" or "don't go jogging by yourself at night" or "don't get wasted at a frat party if you don't have people you can trust around you"? No, it's just the first step! You address these things and then you put real combat training behind it. You spar, you roll around, punch, knee, grapple and kick until she becomes a force to be reckoned with. Because the fact is, no matter how "aware" she is, situations arise which are unavoidable. So you train to fight using basic techniques that you know you can pull off against a resisting opponent. However, I don't think the "awareness" should be emphasized any less. Avoiding those places and situations may not save you, but it might cut down the odds considerably...and when you're gambling with your life, every little bit helps.

Best,

Jeff

ps - I just wanted to add that it is in NO WAY the "fault" of a woman who does get into one of these places or scenarios and ends up being attacked. She is NOT to blame, the attacker is, of course, and I truly mean that. At the same time, if she is aware of the potential dangers of putting herself in that place under those circumstances, and chooses to do it regardless, she should be prepared for an incident to occur. That incident is not her fault...but she should definitely be aware that it is more likely to occur than if she had made different choices. I liken it to walking into a den of hungry lions...you can choose to tie raw, bleeding steaks to your head before you go in or not. If you do, it's not your fault that the lions attacked, but maybe you should have left the steaks outside.

[Fighter]

Rockwell, you have my absolute agreement with every thing you just said. Every thing is sad but true.

Those animals that do those things to women AND men are disgusting. Alos as you said can be avoided by taking precautions. And sadly women are more of a target than men.

Because they are usually brought up different to men.

Thanks,

[Erica]

The Truth And Lies- Men Are More Likely To Be Victims Than Women

FIGHTER--
Look at the US Justice Dept. Web page.... you have fallen for
another myth--- Women are targeted more Men. This myth is perpetuated by society, but debunked by the US Government.

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Justice Statistics :

FACT: Men are targeted by Men more than Women are targeted by Men.

"In 2000, males were victimized at rates 42% higher than females. Rape and sexual assault were the exception to the gender pattern; According to the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports, most murder victims were male, 75% in 1999. "

See also Homicide Trends in the United States and Data Online for characteristics of homicide victims by State and large locality.

Also see my attachment showing men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes than woman.

"Men were more likely than women to be the victim of a carjacking (3 men and 2 women per 10,000 persons). "

This is another huge myth that really needs to be addressed in society. For some reason the media and others would like us to believe that women are targeted more than men- that women are the ones who will most likely be victimized. This is the rape culture that keeps women oppressed and men in power and control. Have you read the book - Rape Culture?

More stats:
Violent victimization rates by gender, 1973-00
Violent crimes included are homicide, rape, robbery, and both simple and aggravated assault.

Violent crime rate per 1,000 persons age 12+

Total
population Sex of victim
Males Females

1973 48.5 68.0 31.4
1974 49.1 69.4 31.3
1975 48.9 66.8 33.1
1976 48.5 65.8 33.3
1977 50.5 71.1 32.4
1978 50.2 70.0 32.8
1979 51.5 69.7 35.3
1980 49.4 68.1 33.0
1981 52.6 70.9 36.5
1982 51.0 66.9 36.9
1983 46.2 61.7 32.4
1984 46.2 60.6 33.4
1985 44.7 59.5 31.6
1986 41.9 54.3 30.9
1987 43.7 56.8 32.0
1988 44.2 55.0 34.4
1989 43.4 56.8 31.4
1990 44.0 57.6 32.0
1991 48.0 64.5 33.4
1992 47.8 59.3 37.2
1993 49.9 59.8 40.7
1994 51.8 61.1 43.0
1995 46.6 55.7 38.1
1996 42.0 49.9 34.6
1997 39.2 45.8 33.0
1998 36.6 43.1 30.4
1999 32.8 37.0 28.8
2000 27.9 32.9 23.2



Note: Because of changes made to the victimization survey, data prior to 1992 are adjusted to make them comparable to data collected under the redesigned methodology. Estimates for 1993 and beyond are based on collection year while earlier estimates are based on data year. Due to changes in the methods used, these data differ from earlier versions.

Sources: Rape, robbery, and assault data are from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). The homicide data are collected by the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports (UCR) (Supplementary Homicide Reports) from reports from law enforcement agencies. Homicide estimates for 2000 are based on 2000 Preliminary Annual Release data.

[Erica]

re

Sorry those stats did not come out right on the web page.. The numbers are /year/ and the last two numbers are Gender.. Male than female.

[Erica]

ROCKWELL-

You said" At the same time, if she is aware of the potential dangers of putting herself in that place under those circumstances, and chooses to do it regardless, she should be prepared for an incident to occur. That incident is not her fault...but she should definitely be aware that it is more likely to occur than if she had made different choices. I liken it to walking into a den of hungry lions...you can choose to tie raw, bleeding steaks to your head before you go in or not. If you do, it's not your fault that the lions attacked, but maybe you should have left the steaks outside. "

I disagree. You are blamming. A woman or a man never "puts" themselves in "those" circumstances. Did the victims of sept. 11 put themselves in that situation? Would you "put" yourself in those "circumstances" if you choose to fly in the air on a plane right now? Did the children that Wesley Dodd attacked, raped, and killed "put" them selves in "that" situation? How about Martha Moxley? By saying people put themselves in a situation that they will be attacked/ or possible attacked is wrong and blamming. Violence is about power and control and nothing the victims did was wrong. The attack was wrong. The men that choose to attack are who to blame for their choices not the victims!

In your scenario - the lion if he was well trained he would not have chose to eat the steaks on your head. If he was fierce and choose to attack you he would do so wether or not you had the steaks on your head. Do you get it now?

The attacker chooses a woman or a man not because they are in a certain area or wearing a short skirt or because they did not lock their doors or because they are doing this or doing that ...they choose their victim because they know they will probably not suffer any consequences and it gives them a sense of power and control.

If we as a society held men accountable and acknowledged that men choose to rape/ stalk/ murder/ harrass/ women and other men - and we had programs for adults and children that help debunk the myths about violence and gender biases - I think much violence would be stopped.

So many people act like it is not a man's choice to committ violence like saying they are animals not men. This takes away the accountabiltiy from the men.

So many people victim blame by saying things like "if only she choose not to go alone at night" . And people never hold the men accountable by saying " If only he did not choose to rape her" ; "If only he did not choose the kid in this parking lot to assault" !

In our society people like to live in a protective bubble. People want to believe that women do things (supposedly) wrong and that is why they are attacked. This leads to the myth that there are ways to prevent an attack--it seems so much nicer to think that if you don't wear a skirt you won't get picked...and people like to hear things like this because then they go home and think...oh, I feel so much better because if I never go out at night alone... or if I never run with head phones on...or if I vary my daily routine.....then I won't get hurt... This is a major defense mechanism to keep distance from the truth: Anyone, anywhere, anytime - could become a victim- and this is scarey to think. People would rather choose to hear the myths that society keeps perpetuating and live in their protective bubble. The myths like the 500 PREVENTION TIPS List...lock your doors...if you faint he won't assault you..if you do this or that you are less likely to be assaulted....It helps people believe they can keep from being assaulted just because they do these tips everyday. It takes away from trusting your intuition and being aware....these tips/ so called "advice" keeps women victims of an opressed society and works for the victimizers - and keeps the cycle of violence going. This advice keeps women oppressed and uninformed.

[Fighter]

Wow

Wow you sure do know what your taliking about. Sorry I havent read that book.

You must of put ages into typing that report. Your a true champ. From now on I'll try to be a little more open-minded.

And for any one who didn't read the long posts GET BACK THERE AND READ THEM !!! They have some very goo info in them that may surprise some of you.

[Erica]

Thanks!

Thanks- I look forward to future discussions with you!!
Smiles,
Erica

[Fighter]

Cool

I will also look forward to other discussions. Im starting one on July 13 2002 on Dragon Ball Z Ju-Jitsu. Im not sure if anyones seen the show but check out the forum when its up.

[Rockwell]

Erica, I have a feeling you and I aren't going to agree on this one, but I'll try to explain my point of view better.

First of all, I am NOT blaming the victim, I am blaming the attacker(s). I stated that very clearly in my first post. If you're going to quote me, please include that first and foremost.

I agree that anyone can be attacked anywhere, at any time, for any reason or for no reason. You cited some examples of terrible events. But if you're using the terrorist attack on the Twin Towers on 9/11 as an example to prove a point about a woman defending herself against a sexual predator, then you are I are not talking about the same thing. I'm not talking about weapons of mass destructions utilized by a religous group against people who had no knowledge of their existence. As I stated in my first post, I am talking about the folly of going into a situation or set of circumstances you KNOW to be inherently dangerous. Not dangerous like crossing the street or going to work.

Let me make something clear again. I am not b-l-a-m-i-n-g the victim. Violence against women and children is sickening to me, I don't think a lower form of cowardice exists. It is never their fault. That being said, violence towards women happens. It is a reality. No matter how much I hate it, some sick cowards out there will still do it. So how do we fight against this? Physical combat training is one, certainly. Well-trained, athletic women of various sizes are definitely able to become good fighters who can defend themselve very well. But it seems a given to me that AWARENESS is as much a part of self-defense as physical training, whether you're a man or a women. How to realize when you are in a potential dangerous situation, and how to AVOID that situation in the future. No matter how many statistics are thrown out there, to conclude that there are not certain behaviors that ellicit certain responses under certain conditions is simply closing one's eyes to the truth.

Here are a few examples that I think might paint a better picture of what I'm talking about. The key to all of them is that there is a CHOICE involved, and knowledge beforehand of inherent risks:

Hypothetically, let's say I am a white male interested in doing a social experiment. I walk into SouthEast Washington D.C. with a sign on my chest that says "I hate black people." This will very probably make me extremely unpopular with the locals, and I am very likely to be attacked if I hang around long enough. Is it my fault that I am being attacked? No, they are the ones who have chosen to vent their anger through violence. They are to blame for being so closed minded and not expressing their disapproval of me and my sign in a more mature way. But realistically, I should have probably known better than to help create the situation I have now found myself in. While I am getting my head kicked in, I can reflect on the state of race relations and wish they were otherwise. I can think about working in my community to try to change them. But in the meantime, I better get up and run, burn that sign when I get home, and stay the heck out of Southeast.

That's an extreme example, let me give another. I don't know what it's like right now, but a few years ago, the "Bloods" and the "Crips" were two rival gangs on the West Coast of the US. Bloods wore red colored clothing, red bandanas, etc. Crips wore blue. Violence was common between the gangs and they would sometimes simply shoot on sight. Anyone wearing blue or red suddenly became a target for the opposing gang. So if I am warned about this situation, yet I go walking into Blood territory wearing Crip colors and I get shot, is that my fault? No, it was my attackers fault for pulling the trigger. The blame lies with the ignorance of these people involved in the gang war. Yet...was it the smartest course of action for me to do what I did, when and how I did it? Perhaps not.

How about this...let's say I'm a bank owner. I build my bank in the worst part of town. I am warned that I might get robbed, but I pay no heed, I don't want to run my bank the way other people tell me. I don't have a armed guard. I don't have surveilance cameras. I don't have a security system. I don't even have a lock on my vault. Now, when I get robbed, was it my fault? No, the thieves were to blame. But wouldn't you say I put myself and my bank at a risk I might have been able to avoid had I altered certain things?

Let's take the example from my previous post, the lion's den. We are not talking about "trained" animals at the circus here (who still can become violent - is the elephant who tramples his trainers in anger at fault or are they? You tell me...) These are wild animals acting on instinct. Good or evil, the same thing can be applied to people sometimes. THE ANIMAL IS WHAT IT IS. You can pretend it is a big pussycat, you can wish that was something other than what it is, but you cannot change what it is. So you'd better respect this and alter your behavior accordingly.

Two of the examples I gave involved social/racial issues, and the topic of violence towards women brings another into the equation - SEX. Sex is perhaps the most powerful of all these motivators. I have heard that violence towards women is not about sex, but about power. Personally, I think the two are often very closely intertwined. So now you have to examine the circumstances...

Women, in general, are at a physical strength and size disadvantage in comparison to men. That is not to say they can't do everything men can do - yet when those attributes come into play, it will often be more difficult for them. One of those times is self-defense.

Attackers often percieve women as weaker. Whether they are or not is not the issue, but if they are percieved as such, they are more likely to be chosen as a target.

Men often have trouble controlling their sexual urges. It leads them to do impulsive, sometimes aggressive, sometimes violent things. If women are dressed a certain way, acting overtly sexual, or drinking heavily and appear vulnerable, they become a much more prominent target. I have no scientific data to back me up on this, I just know this because I'm a man and I have witnessed some horrible behavior by other men. And I've never even witnessed the extremes, only heard stories.

There are circumstances where some very troubled men wish to harm or violate women due to sexual/social/power issues. These are issues specific to the relationship between the two sexes, differentiating them from attacks by men against men. In 1996, a man attacked and killed two women hiking in Virginia. Police think he killed them because he thought they were lesbians and he had apparently been sexually frustrated in the past. Pretty sick and twisted person. Let me make clear I am not saying AT ALL that they made any choices which led them to be victims in this scenario or ANYTHING LIKE THAT. I am just using this particular story as an example of how sometimes men choose to prey on women for reasons that would not put other men in danger.

With all these factors in the equation, as wrong and unjust as we know they are, doesn't it make sense to recognize them for the facts that they are, and adjust some behavior accordingly? I am by no means advocating that women should never jog or wear clothing that they like. I am simply saying that it seems ridiculous not to acknowledge that there are times and places where those things are simply less safe than others.

Jeff

"Control the things you can control. Let everything else take a flying f*ck at you, and if you must go down, go down with your guns blazing." - Stephen King

[Erica]

re

This is really simple-

You believe that you should tell someone to do or not to do something.

I believe that everyone should trust their own intuition and do what they think and know is right in their situation.

In regards to men not being able to control their sexual urges - Lorne Coleman - a male...the director and founder of ESCAPE- says that when a man is about to rape a woman, and a fire suddenly breaks out in the room, or her roommates suddenly walk in, he will immediately "control his urges" by getting up and running out as fast as possible. PLEASE NOTE: MEN RAPE WOMEN NOT BECAUSE THEY HAVE SEXUAL URGES BUT BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE TO AND BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT THE LEGAL SYSTEM WILL MOST LIKELY NOT HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

[Erica]

REPLY

ROCKWELL-

And anyone else who is confused about what I am saying -

If you really want to learn the truth about violence against women become a volunteer with the local rape crisis center or battered women's shelter or Men Stopping Violence.

Please read

https://www.menstoppingviolence.org

[Jerry Wetzel]

Erica,

I agree that intuition is an important part of our arsenal, however it is not magic although it may appear that way. For instance, our intuition may grab our attention if it senses something out of the ordinary. In order to know what to watch for, I believe it is a good idea to have been told of certain danger sign or zones to watch for. Your intuition may not pick up any bad signals the first time around. I don't think Rockwell is speaking in absolutes. You are responding as if he is though. It's not a matter of telling people what to do, but rather making them aware of potential hazards.
I know you've said repeatedly that intuition should be enough to stear us from danger, but too often it is not. Just look at those statistics you keep posting. One of the things that needs to be addressed is a thing called "Objective Reality". Not how things should be; or how they ought to be; but how they are. By not addressing how things can be avoided (and I'm not talking about skirt length...that arguement is tired) what are you doing to help prevent it. Which is more manageable: Changing the world, or changing how we deal with it. This does not mean women should not go out at night. It does mean that they should be made aware of potential risk areas and behaviors and of warning signs...(of both themselves and especially others)Think of it as arming your intuition. I am hearing something akin to denial in your inability to accept certain truths and realities. This is the enemy of intuition. I wonder how many of your statistical women joined the list because they were too proud, "nice", or IDEALISTIC to listen to their intuition. What I want things to be is one thing, BUT, when "what is" happens will I be prepared? At what point do we take responsibility for our own safety and stop blaming boogey men and government conspiracies?
While statistics are nice, anyone who has studied them knows that studies are often conducted in order to reach a predetermined conclusion. They are hardly enough to base an intelligent arguement on unless you've seen the raw data and know who is running the survey and for what reason. Does a statistician include in their estimation the false rapes, or statuatory cases between 17y/o females and 18y/o males who were consenting but mommy and daddy didn't like him? Now, before you get upset....
I have seen the effects first hand. I worked for 5 years in an emergency room that was contracted to handle all of the ASAV (alledged sexual assault victims) for Orange County California. My wife is an E.R. Physician and has handled the medical aspects. I am not insensitive to these cases.

Stay safe,
Jerry

[Fighter]

Cool

You guys sure know what your talking about. Blitz magazine has some great articles on this kind of stuff... You should read it sometime.

Do any of you read Blitz?