Resources For Self Defense

[Gerald Boggs]

If you don't train GJJ, what will you do when you find yourself on the ground. On the ground with a large, not so nice man between your legs. Of all the 'martial arts' only the Gracies addressed this question. Others NOW address it, but for the most part, they're just teaching a rehash of GJJ. Sure, go check out what others are teaching, but go to the Gracies or those that have learned from them for your ground defence.

[ryanhall]

If you don't train GJJ, what will you do when you find yourself on the ground. On the ground with a large, not so nice man between your legs. Of all the 'martial arts' only the Gracies addressed this question. Others NOW address it, but for the most part, they're just teaching a rehash of GJJ. Sure, go check out what others are teaching, but go to the Gracies or those that have learned from them for your ground defence.

Geez, Gerald. This seems to be a really sore point with you . Nobody said not to train GJJ or BJJ. They are great systems. However, the Gracies are nowhere near the top of the reality food chain. I don't think one can argue that point. Going to the ground as they often do is tactical suicide. They are great when they get there, but it is not the place to be (as has been stated in MANY other recent threads). Aspects of their system are certainly necessary to incorporate into reality training, but I do not believe that it is necessary to go and get a purple belt in it or train half my life under their tutelage. They made and continue to make their mark in MMA and NHB. That is their area of expertise. The ground is of equal importance in reality, but I don't believe it should receive equal attention when compared to other aspects of training. You don't f#ck around down there to get an armbar unless it's a family member or friend. You get up, and you do it yesterday.

[Gerald Boggs]

I grant the admiration I feel for the Gracies and the style of fighting that they have given the world. They've proven themselves in the only area that we have to test defensive skills, the combative arena. What they've proven is that without ground fighting skills, nothing else you have will work. The goal of every male attacking a female is to take her to the ground. What will she do on the ground that can match the effectiveness of GJJ?


"for your own safety, STAY AWAY FROM THE GRACIES when you are looking for real self defense materials"

Question, have you ever see the rapesafe training program? It might not be perfect, but it's better then what I've seen some others teaching woman to do.

You have to base your skills on a good delivery system. What ground fighting is better then GJJ. After you learn GJJ or BJJ, then you can add to it. You have to have a solid foundation first. Then put in everything else.

[ryanhall]

What they've proven is that without ground fighting skills, nothing else you have will work. The goal of every male attacking a female is to take her to the ground. What will she do on the ground that can match the effectiveness of GJJ?

I have to disagree here. Groundfighting skills are necessary to be certain. The complete fighter practices both standup and ground. However, just because one is not well versed in groundfighting does not mean that they can not be effective. It makes them limited and in danger of being taken out of their element, but it does not negate whatever skills they may have. GJJ is a great system. That said, there are many more effective things that can be done on the ground. They fall into the rip, tear, crush, break, gouge, and pull category. I fail to see why people discount these things and say that you need a "delivery system" for them to be used. Naturally a grappler will be in better position to do these things to people, but last time I checked, the Gracies weren't sex offenders. Locks, holds, and chokes have their place, but they are not realistic for a 5'4'' 120 lb pregnant woman or anone who is really THAT small. What will the woman do when she lets the attacker go? Even applying the guard on a huge opponent can be difficult in my experience. Strength is not a huge factor in BJJ/GJJ, but I seriously doubt if a small woman could acquire the mount and beat an attacker into unconsciousness.

Question, have you ever see the rapesafe training program? It might not be perfect, but it's better then what I've seen some others teaching woman to do.

I saw some of it, and it was pretty good. I have, however, seen better. That is not to discount it, though. I just like a few other programs a little better.

You have to base your skills on a good delivery system. What ground fighting is better then GJJ. After you learn GJJ or BJJ, then you can add to it. You have to have a solid foundation first. Then put in everything else.

No arguement here. I think GJJ is a superior system, and I practice elements of it for a reason. I just think that learning the nasty stuff as you go along is the way to go. It keeps you in the right frame of mind.

[Gerald Boggs]

Great reply. I'm off to bed, but I'll think on what you posted and tomorrow offer my opinion.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

"I fail to see why people discount these things and say that you need a "delivery system" for them to be used."

I'll have to disagree with you here. (Though maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. )

The reason a good "delivery system" is needed to pull off the gouging, clawing, etc. that people talk about is because once on the ground a person with an undeveloped "delivery system" can literally be unable to even move. They will struggle in desperation to no avail, and when they try to move their hands to any position in order to gouge, they simply cannot because the other person's position is just too dominant. The person tries to turn his/her head in order to bite flesh, but cannot because their head is pinned tightly to the ground. It's not hearsay, I've seen it happen all the time.

A good "delivery system" does not mean being a wiz with amazing submission holds, the spider guard, and flowing from an upside down americana to a sudden rolling knee lock. A good delivery system means the person has the ability to MOVE on the ground. And by moving, I mean the ability to defend positions, escape from positions, get themselves out of that "stuck" position in order to better apply those gouges, rakes, bites, etc.

As a JKD practitioner I train quite a bit of BJJ and groundfighting. But in order for me to practice eye gouging, biting, pulling a knife, etc. on the ground..... I do it while rolling. I take my training partners and we spar on the ground with 100% resistence.... and THEN I see whether I can pull a knife out without him seeing it..... or get to his eyes uninterrupted.

Clawing, gouging, pulling knives on the ground... they all work. (contrary to the die hard NHB guy's beliefs) But in order for them to work, you've got to have a "delivery system."

That delivery system has to give you the ability to hang with them just enough so that you can "cheat" realistically.

Ryu

[ryanhall]

Ryu,

That delivery system has to give you the ability to hang with them just enough so that you can "cheat" realistically.

No misunderstanding. The way I think of a delivery system is pretty much parallel to your definition. It's about being able to hold your own positionally until you can bring the dirty tricks into play. Just saying to yourself "I'm gonna eye gouge that BJJ black belt and he'll be begging for mercy" is extremely naive if you don't practice any kind of ground work that allows you not to be dominated from start to finish.

A good "delivery system" does not mean being a wiz with amazing submission holds, the spider guard, and flowing from an upside down americana to a sudden rolling knee lock. A good delivery system means the person has the ability to MOVE on the ground. And by moving, I mean the ability to defend positions, escape from positions, get themselves out of that "stuck" position in order to better apply those gouges, rakes, bites, etc.

This is the "delivery system" that I have a problem with. I'm sure that not everyone in NHB holds this belief, but I run into people who will argue ad infinitum that the only way to beat them is to be able to out-submit them--even after showing them otherwise in sparring. I get a lot of "that eye gouge wouldn't have worked/stopped me" after I can get position and put my hand on someone's face for 10 seconds. The only way to unequivocally prove your point is to stick a finger in someone's eye, but I not into causing serious damage just to prove a point. People don't like having their skills or training invalidated, so I can understand their hesitation to accepting new things. What they're not understanding is that the "dirty tricks" that a lot of MMA guys seem to be so scared of calling legitimate do not invalidate their training, they just show a hole that needs to be trained for if you are in it for self defense. My whole deal is training everything as you go, and you will be better prepared to deal with it. It's different than "just add dirt" imho.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

I think we're on the same page then.
Anyone who claims you have to "out submit" a grappler in order to be able to defend against them is ludicrous. They can ask Maurice Smith for one.

Ryu

[Gerald Boggs]

You might want to use a different example. Last I checked Mo Smith spent around three years training ground fighting. One of the gentlemen he did a lot of training with was Frank Shamrock. He did this after declining a challange from the Gracies.
Can't add much to what Ryu just said. Ryan, you sound a lot better now then with your first statements.
One of the great things about training BJJ is the development of comfort zone. You spend so much time on the ground (worse case ) that you learn to relax. In relaxing, you begin to use technique. You're able to see the game and how to apply it. You can train every day at near full speed and you can do the same techniques that you would use in a fight. You can't do that with anything else. So there's no way you will every develop the same level of ability. If you can't develop the ability, how will you be able to use it?

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Well of course, he needs that delivery system.
But my point is that you don't see Muarice Smith competing in the Abu Dhabi championships. As far as strict "submission" skills go, he wasn't as skilled in submissions as Silveira, but he was able to knock him out because he had the realistic delivery system to hang with him on the ground, reverse him, and get back to punching and kicking range.

Ryu

[RBFC]

Agreed with the points about FAMILIARITY with the ground. Training there allows you to find out what little "tricks", etc. will allow you to get a good neck bite, eye gouge, etc., while not doing your homework will leave you stuck under a larger, stronger opponent and unable to effectively use some of the nasty weapons in your arsenal.

One excellent point: that NHB fighters often have a narrow-minded ego-based opinion of what will end a fight. That belief is tainted by their willing (or unwilling) adherence to the "rules" under which they fight. I don't know any NHB fighter who could ignore a good eye gouge or severe bite, yet some of those guys discount those techniques as worthless.

I train a few pro NHB guys, and cannot work with them on the nasty weapons, since it will cause them to hesitate while engaged in a "rules" fight. They would think "eye jab", then remember that they aren't allowed to use it. The opposite side of this is their forgetting about the nasty techniques when they would need them in a street self-defense situation. This does not mean they don't know about the techniques, it simply means that they will not immediately prefer to use those most efficient tools, rather resorting to the usual techniques of their competitions. There have been countless flaming arguments of "Street vs. Sport", and there is no denying that NHB athletes are highly trained and tough. However, having your chest cavity pierced by multiple stab wounds while attempting to apply an Americana, etc. is not a tactically wise tradeoff, so street awareness and strategy must not suffer if you wish to call yourself a streetfighter. Enough for now.

Lee

[Gerald Boggs]

Someone always has to bring in the knife.

By the way, has anyone here ever bite someone in a fight or shoved their thumbs in someones eye? HIt or been hit in the head with a bottle? How did it go, did it stop the fight?

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Before I knew anything about BJJ, wrestling, etc. I got taken down by surprise in a fight by a high school wrestler. I also was in High School and was about 15 years old. He got to side control on me, and I bit off (literally) a piece of his side. He jumped off in a hurry, I landed a kick I think as he was getting up, and I got back to my feet. He would have probaby just taken me back down because now he was hurt, bleeding, and really pissed. But the fight was stopped by adults.

When I was around 14, I got taken down by a really large kid around 17 years old who was somewhat emotionally disturbed. I put my fingers in his eyes, but I did not "gouge" him. I simply thought putting my fingers in his eyes would be good enough.
Well it wasn't, and he got real pissed and started pounding my head with punches. I covered up, and didn't really get hurt, and chased after him as he got off of me. But the fight was broken up at that point.

So the one thing I've learned from my weird high school years is that 1. Grappling happens! And 2. Eye gouging and biting can work, but be prepared to go all the way. Never eye gouge or bite someone half assed. More times then not, eye gouging someone will piss them off and escalate the fight into a life or death thing. Nobody.....NOBODY becomes docile when their eyes are attacked....

Now that I'm an adult I've settled most things with grappling skills. I try to avoid situations where damage is the only way to win.....

Ryu

[Gerald Boggs]

Wow, almost the same thing with me. It was a college football player and I was seventeen. We had a pissing match and it got broken-up. He waited outside and when I came out for a smoke, tackled me from behind. Down I went and he pinned my shoulders with his knees, then he made his mistake. He told me what he was goes to do to my face. So I did the only thing I could, I bite him as hard as I could on the inside of his thigh. Amazing how fast a man can move when you bite them near the crotch.
I've found the same results with eye gouging, unless you get the fingers in right away, you can't do much damage and now you just raised the ante. I've gouged twice and it has some effect, but not enough to stop the fight.
Knees to the groin are about the same. Good technique, but don't base your game on it working. My mother did the knee shot during assualt attempt, dropped the scumbag to the ground and last she saw him, he was in the fetal postion. I, however have be kneed at least twice, both times, near misses. Now I was really mad and I wanted to make sure I left you with something to remember me. I found that when I'm mad, I don't fill much pain, so I prefer to base my defence on technique that are not pain response, but rather postion and control. Althought, there is no doubt in my mind, bite a man in the crotch and he will move.
Gerald Boggs