Men's Violence

[Brokenmace]

Consider this . . .

Hi, everyone.

Here are some things to think about when considering why men seem more apt to perpetrate violence against others (its is misleading to suggest that only women are victims -- look at the mafia, or street gangs), and what to do about it:

1.) Martial culture is at least 50,000 years old. For an isolated community to be genetically viable, at least 200 healthy individuals must breed. Until about 5,000 years ago, practically all communities were isolated. Infant mortality, until the 20th century was appallingly high. Colonial women often gave birth twenty times in a lifetime, but only had maybe three or four children who survived to their twenties. This makes women a precious community resource, especially in the distant past. Without child bearers, the community is dead. It is the source of the "barefoot in the kitchen" mentality. Its mythology was propagated for good reason, but it has since run amok and become obsolete many years ago.

2.) Given the above information, who should go to war? Who can we afford to lose if there are only 200-1000 of us? Men were genetically expendable.

3.) History has proven that only martial societies survive to this day. Only nations situated in areas of little concern to the rest of the world are capable of sustaining a peace-loving male culture (i.e. Bhutan, Switzerland, Tibet) And in the case of Tibet, they failed to perpetuate their society because of nationalistic impulses of the Chinese Communist Party. They failed because they were not martial enough.

4.) Agriculture is (historically speaking) a recent development that has assuaged the need for opportunistic wars for territory. But the increase in technology coupled with the natural impulses of both men and women have led to the carry-over of territorial warfare for resources and geographic supremacy.

5.) In order to sustain one's society against territorial incursion, geographic domination, economic subservience, and untenable foreign political influence, martial culture has and will always be a necessity.

Were am I leading you all? Easy. Men are violent because geopolitical structures since the beginning of our kind have called upon expendable testosterone as a means to secure a people's survival. In order to secure propagation into the future, societies have done the opposite where women are concerned, breeding a female culture of subservience and compromise in order, quite literally (at least in ancient times), to defend the womb.

You are fighting 100,000 years of genetics and 50,000 years of social engineering. And you will have to start over again after the next war . . .

Solutions?

While the Japanese are not saints by any stretch, they have had success in their high schools with martial arts training. These program build character and a since of self-worth and confidence that both men and women benefit from. I think the same should be done in all countries.

If women are inculcated with a sense of power and self-worth in a society, fewer men will be tempted to capitalize on their strength because it will do them less good. I believe this is the answer, and it also allows us to keep our important martial culture while escaping the trap of uncompromising pacifism. It must be understood that while violence is the worst answer, it is still an answer. It always will be. No amount of tree hugging will eliminate Supremacism, which is at the root of all conflict. As such, everyone must step up.

Teach peace, prepare for war.

[Erica]

reply to Man Nazi

You again change the subject-- the topic is Men's Violence. Can you not even own up to the fact that your gender committs almost 100% of violence against women and children and other men? (US Justice Report)

BUT SINCE YOU ARE SO ANGRY I WILL ANSWER YOU.

You say -"The fact that Erica doesn't like the fact that men and women are different and MUST train differently will not make these facts any less true. "

Erica Say's - Dude - what is up with your hate for women??? I have no hate for men ... I just give you the truth and you turn it around like I hate men? Please. It sounds like you are the freakishly angry one-I should start to call you Man Nazi! Men and women are different, but any good martial artist knows that to be good you train to be good- gender has nothing to do with it. Ask the CIA, US Army etc... ask any good martial arts or self defense school...they all train men and women equally. Plus - some women are stronger than men and vice vera......you are so ignorant to think that women are weaker--- also in gracie brazilian jiu-jitsu they even train women and men together....ohhh. Look at maga in the middle east women and men together fighting too...just like the in the US now. You must be pretty old to be thinking like you do. WAKE UP!!!


You say -2.) It's nice that she worshops her instructor. (She's replublished his works and quoted him 100 times here.) But hero worship is VERY bad for one's selective intelectual proccess. Members here will never convince her that he is not ALL KNOWING.

Erica say's -I don't worship anyone- I just know that what he teaches and Galvin Debecker and IMPACT and Krav Maga and the Atlanta area rape crisis centers and battered women's shelters and Los Angeles rape crisis centers are RIGHT- oh yeah and gracie brazilian jiu-jitsu and us military and FBI and Police Dept.. And just because you think you are a guy who knows all about women and how women should fight - you have NO CREDIBILTY to me.

Again- you really need to catch up on your reading skills. I have not quoted anyone on this page except Men Stopping Violence.

Plus- the ESCAPE group is based on FBI Stats, the Justice Dept., women's self defense success stories-- what are your idea's based on? You never do give back up or stats.

you say -3.) Here references to the feminist "Movement", Lesbianism, and Heteroism (as though it were a bad thing) reveal a bias that (IMO) clearly effects her perspective.

Dude- what is up with you? Why would you think I think any of these movements are bad? I don't- each to their own. They have all helped the women's self defense movement and they all have helped bring women's equality forward.

you say-4.) BAM / IMPACT are very good programs. They are also incomplete.

Erica say's-Oh please- every program has room for improvement. I guess you think you have the best program and that your program is complete--- WHATEVER!

5.) Here insistance on trying to use Statistics (which are great for arguments but little conselations to the hundreds of thousands of Rape Victems each year) to infer that Women are really not victemized as frequently as men is both silly and irresponsable.

THIS IS THE TRUTH!!! YOU NEED TO GET SOME EDUCATION!

6.) Its easy for Women to speculate whay men Rape. I have interviewed HUNDREDS of Rapists and Victems. Men Rape for ONE reason - because they CAN. Being angry that this is so will not change its truth.

THE TRUTH IS MORE THAN JUST THAT- THEY DO IT FOR POWER AND CONTROL OVER WOMEN - AND THERE IS NO CONSEQUENCES SO THEY GET AWAYWITH IT. MEN GET ANGRY WHEN WOMEN TAKE CONTROL- AND WOMEN ARE DOING IT IN OUR SOCIETY - MEN WANT THE POWER AND CONTROL BACK- Ask any rape crisis center or profiler.


GET A LIFE!!!!!!



GET SOME EDUCATION!!

[Brokenmace]

Whoa! Settle, settle . . .

"THE TRUTH IS MORE THAN JUST THAT- THEY DO IT FOR POWER AND CONTROL OVER WOMEN - AND THERE IS NO CONSEQUENCES SO THEY GET AWAYWITH IT. MEN GET ANGRY WHEN WOMEN TAKE CONTROL- AND WOMEN ARE DOING IT IN OUR SOCIETY - MEN WANT THE POWER AND CONTROL BACK- Ask any rape crisis center or profiler."

Well, actually, rape is ancient. It didn't all start after women left the kitchen, you know? Rape is older than civilization. It's done for all kinds of reasons. It used to be a punishment, not just for the woman, but for her family. You are right that the primary reason is control and power. I disagree that it has anything to do with our particular society and its power-relationship with women.

Rapists are often insecure, immature, or impotent at work. With no proper social training at the instinctual level, they often resort to rape. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Oprah is richer or more powerful. It is that they are not powerful regardless of women. Were there no other women in the world, they would still be flipping burgers with no future, or just fired from management, or whatever.

It is a deadly coctail of anger, angst, and social impotence. They see women as easy marks, and this feeds their desire to put someone anyone beneath them -- literally and figuratively.

[Lightning&Earth]

well it looks like ERICA is in need of a midol moment

Erica, you can blame it on us men for all the violence and turmoil in the world,,,,and maybe you are right on that,,,but that agenda becomes short sided and keeps the sexes divided in a way that is not very harmonious. Women can be just AS violent as us men and even more so in some cases.
should i refer you to the 4 children that were drowned by thier mother in houston? WOW! some pretty violent actions there huh?
as a man i dont i have that kind of violence in me to drown my children. but i guess a women sure does.

take a midol,,settle down ,,relax and breathe

Many respects,,,Lightningand Earth

[Shiela]

Hi all--ERICA...I feel you sister. As much as I try to avoid making generalizations (for fear of putting some "good guys" in a "bad guy" category), she IS RIGHT to an extent MEN are the ones who commit the most acts of violence. Look at societies where men have absolute control over woman....Pakistan, Afghan, Saudi among others. The woman who are unfortunately born into these kinds of societies are treated as less than human. These woman are bred to hate thier bodies and to hate themseves for being female. AND WHY??? Not because of religious reasons like they all claim--they claim that the Koran says that men are superior to woman and that's what they tell thier woman to keep them obedient. Well, if these woman were allowed an education they would be able to read the Koran for themselves...The irony is that the Koran is the only holy book that specifically states that men should treat their woman well and should be kind to them and the muslim followers are the most horrible to their woman. So then again, WHY is this so??? Because men crave power and control of others and since woman are easier to control physically they are targeted.

It's not hate toward men at all. I have known some wonderful men in my life, but put men in contrl and you get Pakistan...Put woman in control...Well I guess we wouldn't know, it's never happened in our lifetime.

If that isn't enough let's look at the jails...They are mostly filled with men. And Lightning&Earth: It's men like you who perpetuate this battle of the sexes with statements like..."take a midol,,settle down ,,relax and breathe"

Peace,

S

[terry]

This thread has become rather shrill hasn't it? Perhaps the adadge that, "Online political discussion becomes a barroom brawl," applies here. Well, let me take my own crack at it.

The following statements have been made:

1. Men, when considered as a group, tend to be more aggressive than women.

2. Men commit the majority of violent crimes committed in society.

3. Individual men who commit violent crimes are responsible for the consequences of their actions.

I'm fine with all that. Societies inforce this responsibility through the criminal justice system but also through other informal behaviors, e.g., shame, ostracism, etc.

Now, the following statements, while not stated, appear to have been inferred by some male readers.

4. Individual men who do not commit violent crimes or other violent acts are tainted by and responsible for the behavior of the larger group men.

This statement is not true and illustrates the fallacy of projecting an aggregate attribute onto an individual of that group. While some men are violent, some are not. To the extent that people have advocated idea #4 above they could be classified as extremists, whose views alienate the majority of men who would otherwise be women's allies in this matter. In all fairness, I didn't hear either Erica or Sheila say that, but I think that's what I believe a couple of people heard.

Terry

[Lightning&Earth]

Sheila

yes yes i am very kurt at times when dealing with people with hate adgenda issues ,,such as erica and yourself.

you can live in the past and dwell on it,,you can bitch and moan about how you are soo put down and made to feel less than human. you can throw yourself into a pity and shame spiral.

you can complain and sight your own broad generalizations.
but in the end what have you accomplished with this line of rhetoric? all you accomplish is to perpetuate a divide in the sexes. and create disdain and unecessary debates over an age old issue of men and women,,uhh excuse me ,,,women and men.

like i said before,,,violence is violence,,,,,I DONT perpetuate it.
and for your information miss Sheila. MIDOL is a great thing to take when you are feeling crampy and crabby. so i suggest that you do the same. take a midol breathe and relax. or maybe you need a woman to suggest this to you to make you listen. either way it is good sound advice(yes even from a man)

Many respects,,,,Lightning and Earth

[Erica]

reply

Shelia! Yes! Finally another woman. I do not think I have heard an opinion from one other women on this chat. A lot of these men seem to think they understand what it is like to be a women. They can never. I hope you keep posting because we need more woman like you to help confront the myths men (and yes, sometimes women) keep perpetuating. I am going to attach a good poem.

I WANT A TWENTY-FOUR HOUR TRUCE DURING
WHICH THERE IS NO RAPE


BY ANDREA DWORKIN

What's involved in doing something about all of this? The men's movement seems to stay stuck on two points. The first is that men don't really feel very good about themselves. How could you? The second is that men come to me or other feminsts and say: "What you're saying about men isn't true. It isn't true of me. I don't feel that way. I'm opposed to all of this."
And I say, "Don't tell me. Tell the pornographers. Tell the pimps. Tell the warmakers. Tell the rape apologists and the rape celebrationists and the pro-rape ideologues. Tell the novelists who think that rape is wonderful. Tell Larry Flynt. Tell Hugh Hefner. There's no point in telling me. I'm only a woman. There's nothing I can do about it. These men presume to speak for you. They are in the public arena saying that they represent you. If they don't, then you had better let them know."
Then there is the private world of misogyny: what you know about each other; what you say in private life; the exploitation that you see in the private sphere; the relationships called love, based on exploitation. It's not enough to find some traveling feminst on the road and go up to her and say: "Gee, I hate it."
Say it to your friends who are doing it. And there are streets out there in which you can say these things loud and clear, so as to affect the actual institutions that maintain these abuses. You don't like pornography? I wish I could believe it's true. I will believe it when I see you on the streets. I will believe it when I see an organized political opposition. I will beleive it when pimps go out of business because there are no more male consumers.
You want to organize men. You don't have to search for issues. The issues are part of the fabric of your everyday lives. If you love equaltiy, if you believe in it, if it is the way you want to live--not just men and women together in a home--if equality is what you want and what you care about, then you have to fight for the institutions that will make it socially real.
It is not just a matter of your attitude. You can't think it and make it exist. You can't try sometimes, when it works to your advantage, and throw it out the rest of the time. Equality is a discipline. It is a way of life. It is a political necessity to create equality in institutions. And another thing about equality is that it cannot coexist with rape. It cannot.
And I want one day of respite, one day off, one day in which no new bodies are piled up, one day in which no new agony is added to the old and I am asking you to give it to me. And how could I ask you for less-- it is so little. And how could you offer me less: it is so little. Even in wars, there are days of truce. Go and organize a truce. Stop your side for one day. I want a twenty-four-hour truce during which there is no rape.
I dare you to try it. I demand that you try it. I don't mind begging you to try it. What else could you possibly be here to do? What else could this movement possibly mean? What else could matter so much?
And on that day, that day of truce, that day when not one woman is raped, we will begin the real practice of equality, because we can't begin it before that day. Before that day it means nothing because it is nothing: it is not real; it is not true. But on that day it becomes real. And then, instead of rape we will for the first time in our lives--both men and women--begin to experience freedom.

[Shiela]

I think I'm beginning to understand the problem w/ forums--people who don't read them open-mindedly tend to negate ones opinion before even finishing and in effect don't truely READ it.

Lightning&Earth--I think you need to RE-READ what I wrote.

You wrote: "you can live in the past and dwell on it,,you can bitch and moan about how you are soo put down and made to feel less than human. you can throw yourself into a pity and shame spiral. "

I have NO idea where this is coming from...Since when is writing what is true "bitching and moaning"? And by "living in the past"--if you are referring to what I wrote i.e. Pakistan, et al, then you need to crawl out from under your rock and join us here in the PRESENT. Do you ever read the news??? Just recently a young woman was ordered to be gang raped by four men as punishment for her BROTHER's actions. Apparently he was caught holding hands w/ a girl from another town unchaperoned so to punish him and his family the sister gets raped. Is that not sick??? That is how it is in Muslim countries, women are treated as pawns in a society where men are struggling w/ each other over POWER. That, my sweet, is NO generalization-it's FACT. Other cultures fasinate me so I read a lot about them. Even if you aren't caught up with current events SURELY you've heard of the Taliban--Another group of men who wanted to control people so they took over Afhgan about 7 yrs. ago and took all women right out of the work force...even doctors and teachers and denied them all females the right to an education. And this would still be happening had the US not kicked there *ss. But that's another forum....

My point is that I may have made a generalization about men wanting control but I sure have A LOT of evidence to back it up. Do you have evidence to disagree??? I'd certainly be open to hear them. You know if you're gonna respond to postings you really should know the difference b/t FACT and gen. It makes you look foolish when you don't......

By the way--MEN who confuse ascertiveness for PMS are just plain ignorant. And as far as the Midol...why don't you take it cuz I feel wonderful--better yet why don't you take a Ritalin cuz you need to focus a little more on what's being written.

Peace,

S

[Lightning&Earth]

Violence is Violence

we have ALL experienced Violence,,WOmen ,,MEn Children ,,Animals ,,etc. the list goes on. you wish to explore the origins of Men's Violence? explore your own.
and I AM with the present young lady. as a MAN and in my youth i have experienced MORE VIOLENCE THAN YOU EVER WILL.
so i know what i am talking about,,and i dont have to be a WOMAN to understand what it is to be a PERSON that is subject to degredation, Violence ,abuse, and the like.

i have worked with Non profit sexual assault programs and been consulted in times past when teaching self defense for women and i have also worked with children abused and ADD.

as i have stated before you can BLAME IT ALL on us men,,and you may be right, but that ISSUE becomes short sided and keeps us ALL DIVIDED. okay so what have you proved? MEn are violent prone. okay now what? Women are as well. you OR erica never replied to my reference to the MOTHER that drown her own children in Houston Tx. WOW that was pretty violent,,as a man i dont i have that kind of violence in me to kill my own children,,but it seems as though a WOMAN has that kind of violence in them.. see i can make a broad generalization as well. who is the foolish one here? certainly not me.
Here is a grand and controversial notion,,,you want to stop violence and degradation against women?
counter the Patriarchal christian religious rite that perpetuates
the notion that women need to be put in thier place. if you be a christian,,thats where it stems from,,if you do YOUR history.(yes i am a pagan).
you want to know why the male factions are more violent prone? religion is your answer. there was a time when the Matriarchy set things in balance. and yes even then there was violence. always has been that.
so why not instead of titleing it Mens violence you title it
just Violence?
get off your hate trip ladies. you wil be less stressed out and so quick to label.

Many Respects,,to you both,,,,Lightning and Earth

[Shiela]

Boy, are you thoroughly confused--Where in any of my postings do you get HATE towards anyone??? PLEASE show me. You are SOOO close-minded that you read into things that aren't even there. I STATE FACTS that's it. I have not BLAMED anyone for anything. I have merely stated some factual instances of male abuse towards woman. That is UNDISPUTABLE. That does not make me a HATER. I rather enjoy men. I'm very hetero.

And no where did I state that only men are violent. If you'd stop being so defensive you'd get that. I'm certainly not trying to divide us as a society of females vs males. That's silly. This is a forum to discuss men's violence or have you forgotten. That isn't to say that only men do violent acts. I would never suggest something so ridiculous. But men DO tend to be MORE violent. I've provided entire countries who practice violence towards women as the norm and you provide ONE example of a woman who drowned her children. I think the fact that she is NUTS excludes her as an example. What about serial killers....who are they???? MEN!!! And who do they go after??? Women!!! Can you honestly deny this??? I mean, when was the last time you heard of a serial rapist female going around raping and killing men? Uhhhh, NEVER!

I have nothing against you or men but let's be real. You may not have a violent bone in you body, alot of men DON"T. But alot of men DO and those are the ones we are discussing.

Now lets kiss and make up, 'kay???

Peace,

S

[Shiela]

antonsevilla & Rockwell

antonsevilla & Rockwell--Where did ya'll go--I love reading your posts. You guys are interesting and homorous. Let's hear from ya!

Just thought I'd share that!!!

Peace,

[Lightning&Earth]

Violence is Violence

okay sheila. whatever you say dear. im not going to go round and round with you on this.
i could state a lot of other instances where women were violent prone just as men are. who killed pop star SELENA? A woman. who drown thier kids in a car in KEntucky several years back? a woman,,who drowned thier kids in the tub not too long ago? A woman. i could site others but you get my point, hopefully and finally. the fact that these women were mentally unstable does NOT EXCLUDE THEM FROM ANYTHING. who lopped off john bobbits wanger?(even though he deserved it) a WOMAN.
(i knew that would get a chuckle out of you.

please note that i counter this notion of Mens violence because that is a short and biased issue. you state facts,,well SO DO I.
so heres a question for you Sheila. WHAT ARE YOU DOING FOR THE WORLD WHEN IT COMES TO "VIOLENCE?"
again i say ,,now what?

Many Respects,,,,Lightning and Earth

[Lightning&Earth]

Ottawa Citizen, Dec 4th, 2001:

"On Oct. 24, 1999, Mr. Rowe, now 56, called police and asked them to be in his home while he removed some belongings. He wanted out of his marriage and didn't want to risk conflict and/or accusations in a situation that could be hostile. Two officers stood by as he made his move. He spent the night with relatives. The next morning, he was hauled out of bed, arrested and handcuffed. His wife had complained she was assaulted [the previous night, during his move]. He spent 18 hours in jail... At the time, he told the arresting officer and the investigating detective to check with the officers who came to his home the night before. Instead, he was formally charged... His legal bill was $5,350... [T]wo weeks after the arrest, his wife approached him. He locked the doors of his vehicle and used his cell phone to call police. When they arrived, it was [Mr.] Rowe who was stretched over the hood and searched [and arrested]... These policies [the ones the police above were following] translate to zero tolerance and are responsible for channelling 120 men a month into Ottawa's Domestic Violence Court. Men on this DV court ride can't go home, even if the woman recants [eg. says she was lying], until they plead guilty..."

Ottawa Citizen, Dec 5th, 2001:

"In the back of my [an Ottawa woman's] mind there was always the thought of the telephone. All I had to do was dial those three digits (911) and claim I was the one abused, and I would win...One night I did it. I had hurt Kevin [her husband] physically and he had had enough and he wanted out. When he tried to get to the door I tipped his chair [his wheelchair; the man is confined to it due to cerebral palsy]. Then I made the call. It was pure anger. I'll show you who's in charge. While I waited I calmed down and realized what I had done. I didn't want to lose him...When police arrived they told Kevin he was under arrest. I told them...look at the evidence [his legs and back were covered in bruises and sores in various stages of healing; and he is parapalegic]. I was the one who committed assault. They said they were sorry, but it was policy. The man goes to jail."

Ottawa Citizen, Dec 6th, 2001:

"He [husband of the speaker] wouldn't unlock the door [of his bathroom, where he had gone to in an attempt to escape her during a fight]... I didn't know what to do. I called police to ask what to do [about her husband locking himself in the bathroom]. I wanted to know what were the proper steps to take. I was upset and wanted advice... A short time later, Dale [the man from the bathroom] was on his way out the door with his hands cuffed behind his back... He spent the next four days and nights in jail... When they were handcuffing him I [the wife who made the call] told them he wouldn't hurt anybody..Nobody would listen... [T]he advice from support workers..was that she should break up her marriage... They [then] said if I wasn't going to protect my child from his father [by leaving him], then the system would have to [take the child from them]...there was a restraining order in place, he couldn't go near his home or family [for four months], so couldn't parent his son. Baby sitting and day care were needed, adding up to $400 a week to their problems. Then the system shut him out of his job. He was served with a court order telling him to report to the Royal Ottawa Hospital for an assessment. He was working at that psychiatric facility; the court order was an instant job-killer... Eventually, he was persuaded to sign a peace bond, and allowed to go home..He has gone into the records as another violent male. These records now show another woman rescued... Aside from the job loss and baby sitting costs, there was a $2,000-legal bill... You know what was the worst part? It was when Dale did come back, he wouldn't fight. No matter what I said or did he just said 'Yes dear.' ... In September this year, things were back to normal in their home..[i]t was a hot evening and their balcony door was open. They were being noisy and the sound was angry. There was a knock at the door. In a flash, Dale was in handcuffs again..."

[Lightning&Earth]

an oft-neglected fact regarding all the "violence against women" campaigns is that the VERY SAME STUDY that established the "one woman is battered every x seconds" statistic found that men actually have a HIGHER incidence of domestic violence perpetrated against THEM. in other words, if women get battered every 6 seconds, men get battered every 5, according to this study.

"From a Darwinian perspective, Radical Feminism represents the withdrawal of certain females from the breeding population. This means that they will play no role in the future gene pool of humanity. Considering the types who have taken this path -- e.g. Steinem, Dworkin etc. -- this appears to be a quite desirable eugenic choice.
Now if only we could persuade the Radical Right to withdraw from the future gene pool, too, I would like the results even better. "

posted by Grey Mystic, in the KFM forums