Why women SHOULD train differently than men......

["Real"PDShaolin]

I know alot of women are very concerned about being equal in a Dojo or academy. Theres nothing wrong with that. There are MANY reasons why women SHOULD train differently than men.

Im not a male ego maniac or anything here. Lets all just agree on something:

There are certain physical differences between men and woman. Men are often larger, which makes their bodies able to take more punishment. Their larger size gives them a longer reach from which to inflict harm. USUALLY men are raised much more physically than women. This makes them more USED TO physicality and physical situations and impacts.

This is the way things are guys.

Knowing this, there are cetain things a woman can work on to even the field.

I have alot of friends who are bouncers and law enforcement. You will almost NEVER hear of a woman being attacked by a man with his hands up throwing punches like a boxer. Men USUALLY feel physically superior to women and approach a physical confrontaion differently with a woman than a man. Most man on women assaults occur in close quarters. This makes grappling and realistic close range self defense ideal.

I think its hardly plausible for ANYONE of smaller stature to try and strike a person who is bigger, stronger, has a longer reach and whos body can take more punishment because of greater mass. Of course the rule that women are attacked in close quarters is not ABSOLUTE. There is always an exception. Women should learn the striking arts just like anyone else, but if they are interested in the arts for self defense then grappling and close range is really what should be emphasized.

[terry]

Re: Why women SHOULD train differently than men......

Originally posted by "Real"PDShaolin
There are certain physical differences between men and woman. Men are often larger, which makes their bodies able to take more punishment.

During my days as an aircraft design engineer I looked at a lot of data on what kind of stress the human body can withstand. The studies NASA did on both fighter pilots and astronauts indicate that women actually have a higher tolerance for pain, not lower. In addition, women tend to score better at a series of measurable tasks while under pain than men do. In addition, if you've ever coached anybody through labor I think you will emerge with a newfound respect for the pain tolerance of women.

I think its hardly plausible for ANYONE of smaller stature to try and strike a person who is bigger, stronger, has a longer reach and whos body can take more punishment because of greater mass.

Maybe Lucia Rijker might be willing to test that theory out on your scrotum. I can ask her if you like.

If they are interested in the arts for self defense then grappling and close range is really what should be emphasized.

Now, this is an interesting point to expand on in a discussion. Your point is reasonable, but let me present a contrasting viewpoint. Since the average self-defense course is not something that lasts for months, little time is available for developing skills. In addition, many students of self-defense courses do not receive regular follow-on training. Thus, there may be months or years between the time they learn a technique and the time they need to use it. Under these circumstances, the following types of techniques are advantageous:

1) Techniques that are simple
2) Techniques that require a minimum of time to develop
3) Techniques that have a high probability of success

Basic hitting skills, such as a finger jab or palm strike meet those criteria, as does straight knee #2 and a foot stomp. I'm not sure what the right mix is, but I wouldn't ignore hitting skills.

Terry

P.S.: Your post illustrates the kind of prejudice that has become institutionalized in many professions.

["Real"PDShaolin]

OK, here we go....

If you want to come across like Im a Nazi who thinks men are superior to women than I'll act that way.

Womens bodies are statistically smaller than mens. This is a FACT. There is NOTHING about pain tolerane in my post. A smaller body will break faster than a bigger body. If you dont like that FACT move to fantasy land where the laws of physics are different from Earth.

You mention Lucia Ryker when say I smaller person shouldnt try to outstrike a larger one. Do you think this is an absurd theory? In case you never checked, genius, Lucia Ryker fights in a SPORT where there are WEIGHT CLASSES. There are WEIGHT CLASSES for a REASON. Why doesnt she go into K-1 and fight Ernesto Hoost? Because she would DIE. Quickly and painfully. Period. She would have NO CHANCE. Read that and go cry for a bit, the post will be here when you get back.

Are you done? Ok, I'll continue....

I'll finish by saying a self defense course is basically USELESS. You need TIME to develop SKILLS to defend yourself. Taking a few classes on how to yell "Hiya!" and stomp a big guys foot is going to do 2 things: Jack and Sh!t. And Jack just left on a holiday.

I think its LAUGHABLE that you find something I said as an indicator of prejudice. Everything I said is FACT in the real world:

1. Men are usually larger.
2. Larger bodies can take more punishment.
3. Larger size means longer reach.
4. Men are USUALLY raised in a more physical environment.
5. MOST Man vs. Women assaults occur in close quarters range.
6. I would not advise a smaller person using blows to disable a much larger opponent.

If you think ANY of those points are strange or make me prejudiced than you need to see a shrink on your way back from castrating your next male victim.

[Guest]

Testosterone will probably make the average man more capable of physical endeavours than the average woman. How many female world records in athletics are better than the mens? It is NOT bigotry and sexist to point this out.

But I do not think that women should train that differently than men. If anything they should train harder to compensate for nature's lack of generosity in the testosterone, and they should devote more time to nasty strikes (like fingers in the eye type stuff).

There are cultural differences also that, to some extent, are being addressed. In the western world we have bought our little girls dolls and our little boys toy guns. But people are more open minded now and are more likely to let the child make up its own mind what it wants to play with without any prompting.

I do get annoyed when ANY attempt to show men in a more positive light than women gets branded sexist, particularly when so much blatant sexism against men goes totally unchallenged.

Having said that, there are ways of making a point without diplomatically that may not get a knee jerk reaction. Hopefully I have done this and would look forward to responses from people who didn't dismiss my post as sexist.

[MA Fan]

Originally posted by "Real"PDShaolin
I know alot of women are very concerned about being equal in a Dojo or academy. Theres nothing wrong with that.

I'm one of them


"There are certain physical differences between men and woman. Men are often larger, which makes their bodies able to take more punishment. Their larger size gives them a longer reach from which to inflict harm. USUALLY men are raised much more physically than women. This makes them more USED TO physicality and physical situations and impacts."

In my personal experience...I agree with you.

"Most man on women assaults occur in close quarters. This makes grappling and realistic close range self defense ideal."

I have heard this before also and agree with you.

"I think its hardly plausible for ANYONE of smaller stature to try and strike a person who is bigger, stronger, has a longer reach and whos body can take more punishment because of greater mass. Of course the rule that women are attacked in close quarters is not ABSOLUTE. There is always an exception. Women should learn the striking arts just like anyone else, but if they are interested in the arts for self defense then grappling and close range is really what should be emphasized."

Absolutely, however, in my experience I find women don't fight as fair as men. We don't just go for a punch or kick in a street situation. We pinch, poke, squeeze, bite, pull hair, claw, shove fingers in ears, nose and generally fight very dirty. A man maybe able to attack, but if we have the presence of mind (self awareness/learnt timing/distance, etc in the training hall) we maybe smaller and lighter...but that could make us faster? Men use strength against each other in fights initially (so I have observed at any rate), we use nails and teeth and general cunning.

If we were to use close quarter stuff and grappling as a mainstay of our training I think about 7 times out of 10 we would lose, strength and endurance is normally better in men than in women. I have nothing to back this up with btw. This is just pure observation. However, I am only speaking from a Kyu grade perspective. I know a female 4th Dan but I have only ever seen her instruct, never spar/fight.

I guess if I was ever attacked, I would go down fighting. I may lose/die but there would be every bit of DNA possible under my nails, in between my teeth and hair in my hand...that I would hope the assailant would be eventually caught. That's all the best I can hope for. I have been studying Shotokan and Self defence for a while now, but I have never been assured that any one of the techniques shown will work. Every person I have tried them on has been compliant to a degree, so I just wouldn't know.

My training has taught to me react I hope and to be more self aware, so hopefully the situation will never arise.

Just a quick note - I don't think Bri Thai or "Real"PDShaolin have been sexist in anyway...just the painful truth to a large extent. I am one of three women in my dojo, thankfully we don't 'seem' to be treated any differently from the men. I've had a few split lips/black eyes and bruises from sparring...I don't think they are holding back? Mind you...I've doled a few out too

[Guest]

Welcome to the forum. I think you have the most important attribute anyway - a fighters attitude.

Now go an get your nails cut tiger.........

[Ryu (JKD?)]

"Absolutely, however, in my experience I find women don't fight as fair as men. We don't just go for a punch or kick in a street situation. We pinch, poke, squeeze, bite, pull hair, claw, shove fingers in ears, nose and generally fight very dirty. A man maybe able to attack, but if we have the presence of mind (self awareness/learnt timing/distance, etc in the training hall) we maybe smaller and lighter...but that could make us faster? Men use strength against each other in fights initially (so I have observed at any rate), we use nails and teeth and general cunning. "

I like this post.

Ever seen or read any of Richard Dimitri's material?

Ryu

[anton]

Originally posted by MA Fan
Absolutely, however, in my experience I find women don't fight as fair as men. We don't just go for a punch or kick in a street situation. We pinch, poke, squeeze, bite, pull hair, claw, shove fingers in ears, nose and generally fight very dirty. A man maybe able to attack, but if we have the presence of mind (self awareness/learnt timing/distance, etc in the training hall) we maybe smaller and lighter...but that could make us faster? Men use strength against each other in fights initially (so I have observed at any rate), we use nails and teeth and general cunning.

...not to mention a complete lack of testicle-sympathy! (the main reason I avoid sparring women).

[MA Fan]

Originally posted by Bri Thai
Welcome to the forum. I think you have the most important attribute anyway - a fighters attitude.

Now go an get your nails cut tiger.........

Hahaha.
Thanks for the welcome and thank you for saying I have the right attitude.

About getting my nails cut though...lemme think about that...

[MA Fan]

Originally posted by Ryu (JKD?)
"Absolutely, however, in my experience I find women don't fight as fair as men. We don't just go for a punch or kick in a street situation. We pinch, poke, squeeze, bite, pull hair, claw, shove fingers in ears, nose and generally fight very dirty. A man maybe able to attack, but if we have the presence of mind (self awareness/learnt timing/distance, etc in the training hall) we maybe smaller and lighter...but that could make us faster? Men use strength against each other in fights initially (so I have observed at any rate), we use nails and teeth and general cunning. "

I like this post.

Ever seen or read any of Richard Dimitri's material?

Ryu

Hello Ryu,

I'm glad you liked it

I'm afraid I have never heard of Richard Dimitri, who is he?

[Jerry Wetzel]

Hello,

"Real"PDShaolin- I agree that women most definitely would be better off training differently than men and that cq and grappling skill are important, however, I don't agree with your focus. Please don't think I'm going to get into the whole "Nazi" issue. This is only in referrance to training and not an evaluation on your personality.
Many people fall victim to the assumption that because women are generally weaker, they should practice techniques that require less strength (biting, eye boinks,etc.). Women and men should practice these techniques because they are effective regardless of strength. What works,works.PERIOD! There is a best way to do anything. That said, the techniques mentioned need a proper delivery system in order to train them.( Boxing, Thai Boxing,Brazilian Jiu Jitsu etc.) But, this is actually an example of how men and women should train similarly.
There is far too much emphasis placed on the physical aspects of self defense. The equalizer for women does not lie in technique, but rather in the mind and heart. Not in some kind of mystical chi way, but emotionally and psychologically. As MA Fan has shown, the ability to fight with intelligence and tenacity can make a large difference. In all honesty, "Real"PDShaolin is right, the average woman will be at a serious disadvantage if she tries to go toe to toe with the average man. But who wants to go toe to toe?
The point of training should be to create a window of opportunity for escape, not to "disable", or "win".
Where men and women should train differently is in regard to the types of scenarios they run through. Women are attacked differently than men. Not with different physical techniques, but with different approaches, distractions, and in different environments. They also have a different set of tools to utilize(purse, brush, etc.) that they are likely to have in their posession.
I believe it is more important to focus on the sucker punch, emotional climate drills, verbal assault drills, and scenarios that allow for improvisation than on eye boink, nut kick, yell.
MA Fan,
I like your attitude. Where do you train?

Stay safe,
Jerry

[MA Fan]

Hiya Jerry,

I'm based in a University in Sussex, England - UK. I see you enjoy stick work too. I have been doing Modern Arnis for about 4 months now...gotta start some where I supose

[Rockwell]

Great post, Jerry, that really gets to the heart of what needs to be different and what needs to be the same in self-defense training for the sexes!

Jeff

[Jerry Wetzel]

Thank you, Jeff.

MA Fan, good luck in your training.

Jerry

[dannyjian]

what should chicks train in

guys its all good to say laides cant do this & that but the only thing that i dont see is anyone saying to the laides hey you should train in this or that.
maybe some laides need some help in their choice of martial art .
this comes down to friends ,instructors , & the people that say "yeah that works". lets take the old snake around the arm when someone grabs you trick ladies are taught this in "self defence class" . now any laides or guys that want to try this be honist take of the blinkers .
relize this teqneique is supposed to be done in about 1/2 a second so laides get a male to grab ya hard ant tell them their not alowed to let go .
untill you make them [only using this teq]
then evaluate is your training real or are you just lining someones poket with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
after all that what would you sujest a female train in and why .
thanx ...........dan